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#36757 - Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:55 AM Praying for the Dead (Purgatory)  
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I've been told there are examples of praying for the dead found in the OT - I don't have the verses on hand that may support this practice but I wanted to throw it out and see if anyone can explain:

-are there examples of praying for the dead by God's people in the OT?
-why was this done?
-would this practice continue A.D.?

thanks!


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#36758 - Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:24 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: AC.]  
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AJC asks:

-are there examples of praying for the dead by God's people in the OT?
-why was this done?
-would this practice continue A.D.?

1) I can't remember any instance where a true man of God prayed for the dead. The RCC rests its case for both prayers for the dead and purgatory upon a passage from the Apocryphal book, 2 Maccabees 12:38-45. And if one reads that passage with the least bit of care, even that doesn't support Rome's doctrine. Prayers for the dead go hand-in-hand with and are necessarily connected to the false doctrine of purgatory. Scripture teaches that "man has been appointed once to die, and then the judgment." (Heb 9:27) Further, the saints at death are immediately joined with Christ in heaven and are therefore in no need of prayers from the living. They are far better off than we are. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) There are records of early Christians who prayed for their departed loved ones. However, their prayer were not appeals to reduce their punishment and/or time of "purging" but rather that God would even increase their joy and peace which they were already experiencing.

3) See #1.... it's a heretical doctrine and yes it will continue to be practiced among pagans and heathen people.

4) What? no #4?.... yes there is.... and that is my advice to you personally. Make a CLEAN BREAK with Catholicism once for all as you are called to do and you won't be plagued by these type of issues. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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#36759 - Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:34 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim said:


4) What? no #4?.... yes there is.... and that is my advice to you personally. Make a CLEAN BREAK with Catholicism once for all as you are called to do and you won't be plagued by these type of issues. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" />


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#36760 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:11 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: AC.]  
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Purgatory...one of the most contriversial doctrines in the Catholic Church and one I struggle with, personally. The Blessed Pope John XXIII made a good point about Purgatory. He urged Vatican II to recend the doctrine but his plea fell on deaf ears- but it was examined. The Bishops at Vatican II made some good points and presented good theological backings- but still. While I do agree that there are people who aren't ready for God- I feel that God would find a way to make them ready. Meh, if I was the Roman Pontiff- I'd definately open a discussion on it. As to the comment about leaving the Catholic Church so that "you won't be plagued by these type of issues" I would remind you that the Protestant Churchs have the same types of issues with different points of doctrine as the Catholic Church tongue


Gloria Patri et Filii et Spiritu Sancti, Amen!

"For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience. "
#36761 - Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:38 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Young Catholic]  
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YC,

May I ask. I read your bio and why did you convert to Roman Catholic from being a Baptist?


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
#36762 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:01 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Young Catholic]  
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Young Catholic said:
The Bishops at Vatican II made some good points and presented good theological backings- but still. While I do agree that there are people who aren't ready for God- I feel that God would find a way to make them ready.


He has "found" such a way: justification by faith in Jesus Christ, whereby the righteousness of Christ is credited to the one who has faith in Him (cf. Romans 4).


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#36763 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:51 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: John_C]  
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To make a long story short, I never really felt comfortable in my church- I've always been a "private" worshiper who chooses to worship Him by meditation in the scriptures, hymns, etc (the one that the Youth Pastor is always concerned about :P)but that, to me, is not a reason to separate from a Church (obviously). I kinda did my own thing at services- and it worked. My issue came when I started having problems at home (I don't wish to talk about them- you'd think I'm crazy :P). I went to my Baptist Pastor and asked him how I should deal with it and he told me "No child of God would truly have problems with such things- if you are experiencing such things- you must not truly be a believer" that, to me, was totally out of line with Christian doctrine and I immediately started looking for other Churches. While I realize his comments don't reflect the entire baptist denomination (far from it)- the fact that a church within the convention could have such a person and the convention did nothing about it frightened me. I started by visiting other baptist churches and it amazed me how one church's set of beliefs didn't match up with the 2nd baptist church I went to. It surprised me that such a denomination could have such differences- so I started looking elsewhere. I eventually landed on the door of the Catholic Church. I had never considered them- I was always told they worshiped Mary, were going to hell, etc, but their formality appealed to me enough to get me to give them a chance. The first service I attended was...wow. I truly felt the spirit move (let me clarify- I'm not a Charismatic, just making a point :P) and I felt led to look further. I started looking into Catholic theology- I agreed with many of the points- had some issues with some. My priest, bless his heart, answered all my questions and once he learned I had an interest in becoming a minister said, "We need more people like you in the Church. The Church is undergoing a time of change and we need the right people to lead that change" I prayed about it and pondered the conversion for about a year and then began the process of converting. To me- the Catholic Church is an entity with great potential (I especially admired the centralization) and a body where I feel I can worship the best. And, personally, I view denominations as a way we can all worship they way we feel we can glorify Him best and, as long as we follow the primary tenants of Christianity- I believe we all go to Heaven. That's along story short- hope that addressed your questions <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To answer CIV- the grey areas I am refering to are when a person has not been justified but dies as a child or has mental issues. While this person has not accepted Christ- I do believe they'd go to heaven- but would they be ready to be immediately sanctified without the Justification?

Last edited by Young Catholic; Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:56 AM.

Gloria Patri et Filii et Spiritu Sancti, Amen!

"For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience. "
#36764 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:44 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Young Catholic]  
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Young Catholic said:
To answer CIV- the grey areas I am refering to are when a person has not been justified but dies as a child or has mental issues. While this person has not accepted Christ- I do believe they'd go to heaven- but would they be ready to be immediately sanctified without the Justification?

NO ONE goes to "heaven" unless they ARE justified. Additionally, NO ONE goes to "heaven" because they are "sanctified", i.e., they have achieved some prescribed level of righteousness/holiness. For God requires that one be 100% perfect to even have communion with Him, never mind reside in His presence. Thus, as CIB pointed out, it is only by being united to Christ by a true living faith that one is justified and having been justified, they are then accepted by God and "ready for heaven", as you phrased it.


Romans 8:29-30 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."


Notice that those whom God justifies are also glorified! Sanctification is immovably wedged between justification and glorification, which is the end of sanctification. The apostle Paul mentions this fact later in his letter to the Corinthians where he wrote to them:


1 Corinthians 1:30 (ASV) "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:"


The short end of it is, a sinner who believes on Christ with a true living faith, which flows from and can only flow from a regenerated soul is immediately declared acceptable, i.e., he/she has been reconciled to God and whenever the Lord has ordained that they leave this earth, they are immediately joined with Christ in the heavenlies to await the final eschaton.

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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#36765 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:02 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Pilgrim]  
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From what I've always been taught (Protestant and Catholic)The process of Sanctification happens after death- not while we live. Glorification, as I've always understood it will happen after the Rapture when he calls us all home.

Your point about having to be justified to go to heaven- I'm curious as to your stance of what happens to children who die or people who are disabled mentally. They've still sinned and should go to hell- but if they are unable to understand Christ- does God make an exception? Those "grey areas" were the reasons Catholics created the doctrine of purgatory in the first place.

Last edited by Young Catholic; Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:04 AM.

Gloria Patri et Filii et Spiritu Sancti, Amen!

"For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience. "
#36766 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:35 AM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Young Catholic]  
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Young Catholic said:
From what I've always been taught (Protestant and Catholic)The process of Sanctification happens after death- not while we live. Glorification, as I've always understood it will happen after the Rapture when he calls us all home.

I don't know where you heard/read that "Sanctification happens after death" but it certainly is not a doctrine held by historic Christianity (Protestantism). There are two aspects to sanctification: definitive and progressive. The former is legal, i.e., the righteousness of Christ is accredited, imputed to the believer immediately so that he is deemed justified and sanctified, (Zech 3:1-5) having been clothed with the righteousness of Christ. In regard to the former, "definitive", see here: Definitive Sanctification, by Prof. John Murray. For the latter, "progressive", see the list of articles under the heading "Sanctification" see here: Praxis - The Doctrine of the Christian Life.

Quote
Young Catholic continues:
Your point about having to be justified to go to heaven- I'm curious as to your stance of what happens to children who die or people who are disabled mentally. They've still sinned and should go to hell- but if they are unable to understand Christ- does God make an exception? Those "grey areas" were the reasons Catholics created the doctrine of purgatory in the first place.

One's age or mental condition is neither something which commends one to God nor hinders one's salvation. Since salvation is by grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith alone; faith being the fruit of regeneration of the Spirit of God, what is impossible with man is possible with God. (Lk 18:27) The Westminster Confession addresses this matter directly where it says:


[color:"#0000CC"]The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling


III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12


ALL those whom God has elected to salvation in Christ are saved by the same operation of the Holy Spirit and the result of that secret and sovereign work.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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#36767 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:45 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Pilgrim]  
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That's interesting! Never heard of that before- though it certainly makes since (The Westminster confession part)

Quote
I don't know where you heard/read that "Sanctification happens after death" but it certainly is not a doctrine held by historic Christianity (Protestantism). There are two aspects to sanctification: definitive and progressive. The former is legal, i.e., the righteousness of Christ is accredited, imputed to the believer immediately so that he is deemed justified and sanctified, (Zech 3:1-5) having been clothed with the righteousness of Christ. In regard to the former, "definitive", see here: Definitive Sanctification, by Prof. John Murray. For the latter, "progressive", see the list of articles under the heading "Sanctification"


Lets see- reading my post again I realized that I didn't have my morning cup of coffee...that explains alot. Lets see...the lady who taught me about that was my old Presbyterian theology teacher. I did put that in an odd way though, she taught progressive that once we are Justified we begin the process of Sanctification and sanctification is completed upon our death. Sorry, my confusion there. Thanks for your reply- very informative

Last edited by Young Catholic; Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:47 PM.

Gloria Patri et Filii et Spiritu Sancti, Amen!

"For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience. "
#36768 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:41 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Young Catholic]  
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I realize the other replies are thorough and kindly written but I just want to add this.

In Peace William


ERRORS REGARDING THE INTERMEDIATE STATE

Premillennialism – Believers enjoying being present with the Lord in there intermediate state are raised from the dead to return to earth where sin and death still reign. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

Purgatory – What purpose could purgatory have since all the sins of believers have already been removed? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”



.




#36769 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:33 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: Young Catholic]  
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Young Catholic said:
To answer CIV- the grey areas I am refering to are when a person has not been justified but dies as a child or has mental issues. While this person has not accepted Christ- I do believe they'd go to heaven- but would they be ready to be immediately sanctified without the Justification?


God has chosen to remain silent about whether any particular unborn child, or newborn infant, or mentally incapacitated individual goes to heaven. Where God is silent we ought also to be (this is certainly a massive problem within Roman Catholicism, where the doctrine of limbo, not to mention purgatory, was virtually invented wholecloth to address these concerns). Such individuals deserve to go to hell with the rest of humanity; we can trust that some of these are saved by the sovereign grace of God because His elect are from every tribe, tongue, and nation, but we cannot presume upon His grace with any particular such individual. Where He does extend His grace to such, the Spirit works within them the same faith that He works in those who are able to confess that faith outwardly, as fits the whole tenor of Scripture concerning the way of salvation.

Now, as the you said in the post of yours I originally responded to, you believe that there are some folks who "aren't ready for God" (presumably even at their death). The truth of the matter is, as I mentioned before, that if anyone rests on the finished work of Jesus Christ, trusting in Him alone for His salvation, then HE IS READY for God. God has put the believer's sins to Christ's account, and He has put Christ's righteousness to the believer's account. At physical death, the old nature of the believer dies as well and His sanctification is complete, having been purchased by Christ Himself.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#36770 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:50 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
Young Catholic said:
To answer CIV- the grey areas I am refering to are when a person has not been justified but dies as a child or has mental issues. While this person has not accepted Christ- I do believe they'd go to heaven- but would they be ready to be immediately sanctified without the Justification?


God has chosen to remain silent about whether any particular unborn child, or newborn infant, or mentally incapacitated individual goes to heaven. Where God is silent we ought also to be (this is certainly a massive problem within Roman Catholicism, where the doctrine of limbo, not to mention purgatory, was virtually invented wholecloth to address these concerns). Such individuals deserve to go to hell with the rest of humanity; we can trust that some of these are saved by the sovereign grace of God because His elect are from every tribe, tongue, and nation, but we cannot presume upon His grace with any particular such individual. Where He does extend His grace to such, the Spirit works within them the same faith that He works in those who are able to confess that faith outwardly, as fits the whole tenor of Scripture concerning the way of salvation.

Now, as the you said in the post of yours I originally responded to, you believe that there are some folks who "aren't ready for God" (presumably even at their death). The truth of the matter is, as I mentioned before, that if anyone rests on the finished work of Jesus Christ, trusting in Him alone for His salvation, then HE IS READY for God. God has put the believer's sins to Christ's account, and He has put Christ's righteousness to the believer's account. At physical death, the old nature of the believer dies as well and His sanctification is complete, having been purchased by Christ Himself.


Yes- I, personally, don't dispute the fact that if you are a believer- you would be ready for God reguardless. I would also point out that the Catholic Church has recended the doctrine of Limbo.


Gloria Patri et Filii et Spiritu Sancti, Amen!

"For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience. "
#36771 - Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:52 PM Re: Praying for the Dead (Purgatory) [Re: William]  
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Purgatory – What purpose could purgatory have since all the sins of believers have already been removed? “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”


I, personally, don't believe that if you're a believer you would go to Purgatory. That, to me, is in conflict with Justification and Sanctification which was the primary point made by people opposing Purgatory at Vatican II.


Gloria Patri et Filii et Spiritu Sancti, Amen!

"For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience. "
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