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#36900 - Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:03 PM Re: Soft as an Oreo [Re: Robin]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176
straw Offline
straw  Offline

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176
My only concern with your type of thinking is that in the end we might end up being like that guy with his hands lifted up, extolling his religiousity and no where nearer to the guy who is pounding his chest but still going home justified. Antisepticity is useful if you are attempting to anaethetize yourself from the infection. We are however told to be salt, and salt gets into the wounds, it gets dirty, it is love that is not just prescriptive, it is redemptive. We cannot be a commentary we need to be as Christ to the world, or else our Christianity will not float like old Noah's rubber ducky.

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#36901 - Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:13 PM Re: Soft as an Oreo [Re: AC.]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176
straw Offline
straw  Offline

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176
AJC said:

the reason I like Augustine is becasue he combines the experiential with the exegesis. Confessions is a goody and it's funny you mention Retractationes becasue I've wanted to get my hands on that one for a while but can't find it anywhere.

The great book I want to recommend is "The Triumph of Grace (Augustines's writings on Salvation)" by N.R. Needham

As for Calvin, you may be more turned off with the system known as 'Calvinism' (TULIP) which is an oversimplification of the essence of scriptures and Calvin's teachings.

Mr. Needham criticizes the term 'Limited Atonement' and critically compares it to the idea of 'Limited Heaven' because not everyone goes there.

Straw, I hate to recommend you do more homework - but read Needham's book!!! You won't regret it!!!

Okay, okay, I'll read it. I don't generally buy off the internet, but I will see if anyone in the UK has it in store and let my goose know, to bring one on home for me.

Yes, I would prefer to get a copy of his 'retractions', simply because I wonder if he changed his mind about Genesis and rejected original sin. NOT! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Couldn't I just read 'In Pursuit of God' or something by Horatius Bonar, or my Peanuts Anthology ? or fine tooth comb the book of Colossians...

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#36902 - Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:04 PM Re: Soft as an Oreo [Re: straw]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
straw said:
. . . it is love that is not just prescriptive, it is redemptive. We cannot be a commentary we need to be as Christ to the world, or else our Christianity will not float like old Noah's rubber ducky.


Applying your "emergent" philosophy to the Lord Christ's teaching, it would appear that He had it all wrong too and should have "mellowed out" a bit and cast off His "prescriptive" approach:

John 8:31-32 (ASV) "Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, [then] are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 8:39 (ASV) "They answered and said unto him, Our father is Abraham. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

John 17:6-8 (ASV) "I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word. Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee: for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received [them], and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me."

Revelation 3:8 (ASV) "I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name."

The disciple Luke wrote much of the history of the church and recorded:

Acts 2:42 (ASV) "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers."

Acts 15:35 (ASV) "But Paul and Barnabas tarried in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also."

Acts 18:11 (ASV) "And he dwelt [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."

Paul too was guilty of being a "Scriptualist" and heavily "prescriptive" with all he met and counseled, for example, he wrote:

2 Thessalonians 3:14 (ASV) "And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed."

1 Timothy 4:16 (ASV) "Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee."

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (ASV) "But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work."

Titus 3:10-11 (KJV) "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

The Apostle James likewise was a "prescriptionist" and wrote:

James 1:22-25 (ASV) "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But he that looketh into the perfect law, the [law] of liberty, and [so] continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing."

And although there are myriad other passages of God's inspired written Word which I could offer, I'll end with the words penned by the Apostle John when he was near the end of his earthly life:

1 John 2:3 (ASV) "And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

1 John 5:2-3 (ASV) "Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

As is indisputably clear, the Scriptures contain myriad passages which teach that all men, but especially those who profess to be one with Christ to observe His commandments, the law, to continue in faithful obedience to the Law of God, to study the Scriptures and in so doing, repent of sin and live holy lives. In fact, to love God is to know His will as it is written and do conform one's life to it. Those who espouse and/or practice wrongly the truth and will of God are to be rebuked, disciplined and if necessary expelled from the assembly. As the Lord Christ taught His disciples,

John 14:15 (ASV) "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments."

John 15:7-11 (ASV) "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and [so] shall ye be my disciples. Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and [that] your joy may be made full."

In His grace,

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simul iustus et peccator

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#36903 - Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:50 PM Re: Soft as an Oreo [Re: straw]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,376
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,376
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
straw said:
Tom said:

I would like to recommend a book to you by JI Packer called 'Knowing God'.


Thanks Tom. I am no John the Baptist or Appollos. I certainly am not unaware of the doctrinal overkill of the word of faith movement. However, over balances are like sicknesses in the body, before one goes for the knife, one needs to do a proper prognosis. Why was there a word of faith overbalance ? What can we learn ? RC tradition is dominantly 'word of love' - It is not wrong for us to obey Jesus' command to love one another. One might call SDA 'word of hope' and Brethren 'word of fundamentalism' ... as I said, I am no Church History expert, but I do know that in my own life when there are over balances, or sickness, I need to find the root or the cause and discover that carefully so that I do not catch those germs again. To merely take a mercenary stance on everything that is contrary to what we perceive to be the correct behaviour, is to miss the opportunity to grow as a body. It is true that understanding the intrinsic value of faith, and hope, and love and the greatest of these is... heresy hunting. I think we are in danger of becoming like the one's we judge. Currently we have a New Reformation on the go, with it's ideas of conversation, dialogue and emergence (a sickness ?) and on the flip side ecumenism, reductionism, dumbing down the doctrines to have some form of common ground, people saying let's just concentrate on Jesus and forget about all this traditional stuff or baggage which has kept us ineffectual in the global village aka. Warren's World Peace Plan. These are overbalances/sickness...BUT what are they saying...are they saying that we have become tasteless, have we lost our savour, have we lost the vision of the mission to reach out and be healing to the world... maybe not in such a subversive a way as certain rock stars who are looking to heal those who are starving and dying of aids, or certain fringe rejected groups which are being reached by a over the top idea ... where doctrine is almost being thrown out in favour of Spirituality. I am not saying go to be with heresy, but becareful that we are not found encasing our brothers and sisters in yet another IRON MAIDEN. (Inquisitional Torchure Machine) I.T.M.


Oh boy, you have a gift for using a lot of words to ignore what people say.
I can't stand heresy hunters either and have stood against them on many occasions as well. But where in the world do you get the idea that I am a heresy hunter?
I am not really sure, it is worth saying anymore to you.
I guess I will find that out by your response, or lack of response to this post.


#36904 - Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:57 PM Mushy hearts & mushy heads [Re: straw]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040

I've been busy lately and so have had a lot of catching up to do on The Highway. I've read a number of your posts. You stand everywhere and nowhere. You seem to do so much reading that you come away with less clarity than with more. Brother, you must not continue in this way. It is a path leading to destruction, and you will pull others along with you.

There are a number of metaphors concerning the roads to heaven and hell. Most people are tempted by the seemingly straight and fast track that leads to hell, and put off by the arduous trek leading up Mt. Zion. But in your case I think you seem more tempted to take the gently winding country road that leads to hell, rather than the straight path that leads to the Celestial City.

Rather than meek and mild, you are muddle-headed. You allow your deceptive heart and your subjective experiences to be your primary guide, rather than the clear testimony of the Word of God, which many of the brethren here have patiently expounded to you in hopes of turning you aside from your present path.

Your words indicate disbelief that any of us could take seriously a doctrine that teaches that Jesus hates some. Many people who call themselves Christians share your disbelief. But do you know what the Savior says? "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Mt. 7:22-23). Or in the Second Psalm, "Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled" (v. 12). Behold then the eternal hatred of the Lord Jesus Christ!


I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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