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John_C
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#37313 - Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:37 PM The Tithe  
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jaf Offline
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If someone is on disability, welfare or unemployment and receiving a check every week, is such "income" subject to the tithe? I know this may seem like a silly question,however,it came up in a conversation I had at church on Sunday. I've always thought that any money coming in from any source was to be tithed.

#37314 - Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:55 PM Re: The Tithe [Re: jaf]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Hi jaf,

The first thing I would encourage you to do is to click on the "Search" link on the Menubar at the top of all the pages on the Board. Do a search for "tithing" and you will no doubt get LOTS of hits. Tithing has been a "hot" topic here over the years.

Secondly, since I do not believe that tithing is mandated for the N.T. Church, but was restricted to the theonomic nation of Israel, your question becomes mute. It is my belief that Christians are to give cheerfully and deliberately as God providentially allows. But again, I do not find any "commandment" nor "principle" that would put a Christian under obligation to tithe, e.g., to submit 10% of their income.

Lastly, in the situation you have described, the Church should be the one which gives and to this particular individual, not the other way round. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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#37315 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:17 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Hi jaf,

The first thing I would encourage you to do is to click on the "Search" link on the Menubar at the top of all the pages on the Board. Do a search for "tithing" and you will no doubt get LOTS of hits. Tithing has been a "hot" topic here over the years.

Secondly, since I do not believe that tithing is mandated for the N.T. Church, but was restricted to the theonomic nation of Israel, your question becomes mute. It is my belief that Christians are to give cheerfully and deliberately as God providentially allows. But again, I do not find any "commandment" nor "principle" that would put a Christian under obligation to tithe, e.g., to submit 10% of their income.

Lastly, in the situation you have described, the Church should be the one which gives and to this particular individual, not the other way round. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


I will 100% agree with Pilgrim here. Tithing was a mandate for Israel, and, if you actually calculate everything encompassed by this, including all the different 'tithes' and offerings, was MUCH more than 10%.

That said, I do find it interesting that many of those that are least equipped to give, give the most. A practically destitute woman at a previous church gave a good 25% of her income. God richly rewarded her with blessings (I'm not saying it is a 1-1 correlation, i.e. I'm not claiming that if you give you will be monetarily blessed, but in her case I believe it to have been the case).

Steve


Grace is not common.
#37316 - Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:16 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: jaf]  
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John_C Offline
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I lean toward the tithe still being in effect for Christians today. If so, then those types of monies you mentioned come under the tithe.

It is your responsibility to tithe to the church, and it is the church's responsibility to help those in need. Just because the church fails to fulfill its functions does not give Chistians the right to neglect theirs.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
#37317 - Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:55 PM Re: The Tithe [Re: John_C]  
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Peter Offline
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Quote
John_C said:
I lean toward the tithe still being in effect for Christians today. If so, then those types of monies you mentioned come under the tithe.

It is your responsibility to tithe to the church, and it is the church's responsibility to help those in need. Just because the church fails to fulfill its functions does not give Chistians the right to neglect theirs.


Because I hang with Pilgrim on this do you mind showing how that the tithe is still supported under the New Covenant and while your at it just exactly how much are we to "tithe"? 10%, 20%, 30%? Also is the tithe to go to the same programs as it was used under the Old Covenant? If so why? If not why?

Inquiring minds want to know.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#37318 - Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:15 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: Peter]  
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John_C Offline
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Quote
Boanerges said:
Because I hang with Pilgrim on this do you mind showing how that the tithe is still supported under the New Covenant and while your at it just exactly how much are we to "tithe"? 10%, 20%, 30%? Also is the tithe to go to the same programs as it was used under the Old Covenant? If so why? If not why?

Inquiring minds want to know.


As mentioned, tithing as been discussed and debated many times before on The Highway. Here is my brief reply. The word 'tithe' means tenth, so that is why 10%. Of course, God owns 100% and we are just stewards of what He has given us. Some of the main talking points in tithing is tithing first came on the scene with Abraham - Melchizedek. That was during the Promise, not in the law of Moses as most opponents go back to in the OT. Jesus in Matthew 23 agreed that tithing is a good thing to do. He didn't abrogate it. And to a lesser degree when Paul spoke of helping those who minister to us. I do not recall the location.

As to your last question regarding what programs. Since we are no longer living in a Theomony, we are not to replicate the usages as in OT programs. But we can take some principles away from it, and I say that our entire tithes should go to the local body which we belong. Plus, if anyway possible, we should give above our tithe to the local church or other ministries/missionaries.

But, I can see both sides of the issue as making valid points - I just lean toward the tithing side.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
#37319 - Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:39 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: John_C]  
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Dear John,

Quote

John_C said;
But, I can see both sides of the issue as making valid points - I just lean toward the tithing side.


IMO, don't lean with sore knees and bad feet but rest. Give generously and lovingly and not according to the O.T. Theomony guidlines which have been fulfilled by the outrageous humility and unspeakable generousity of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus of Nazareth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#37320 - Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:06 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: John_C]  
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Peter Offline
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Not to beat a dead horse but a recent White Horse Inn podcast had all of the hosts agreeing that the tithe was an Old Covenant institution and that the New Covenant command was giving cheerfully. However, they did say (if I recall correctly) that the tithe was a good yardstick if you wanted to use it.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#37321 - Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:10 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: Peter]  
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Robin Offline
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I agree with Boanerges, above. I think the Old Testament standard is a kind of starting place, a guide as to what we ought to be able to give.

But just as the Lord Jesus "toughened" the Law from killing a man to hating your brother and from adultery to looking at a woman with lust, I feel the same way about the giving standard - from 10% to giving sacrificially from the heart!

Sacrificial giving may be more or less than 10% I suppose, but for most people, 10% is hardly a sacrifice.

#37322 - Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:15 AM Re: The Tithe [Re: Peter]  
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Wes Offline
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I've listened to that White Horse Inn discussion too. It was very good and pointed out the difference between liberty and law in our giving. Being liberated from the power of sin we have the ability to do what is right as opposed to feeling constrained by the law to do something that is opposed to our will. It could be summed up by "the motive of the giver" or as a man purposes in his heart rather than some legal requirement. I also agree with Robin's comment that using 10% as a starting point is hardly sacrificial giving. The point is not so much the amount we give as it is meeting the needs of others that we are presented with. In addition it should be a private matter. (see Matt. 6:1-4)

Over the years I learned a hard lesson about giving. If we don't give off the top of our earnings (the first fruits) we probably won't find any left at the end of the week to give.

There is an interesting article at Wikipedea that follows the history of the biblical accounts of tithing and the history of how that was carried out in many different countries around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#37323 - Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:09 PM Re: The Tithe [Re: Robin]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Quote
Robin said:
But just as the Lord Jesus "toughened" the Law from killing a man to hating your brother and from adultery to looking at a woman with lust, I feel the same way about the giving standard - from 10% to giving sacrificially from the heart!

Sacrificial giving may be more or less than 10% I suppose, but for most people, 10% is hardly a sacrifice.

The problem I have with your first statement is that what Jesus "toughened" was in regard to the Moral Law; not the Ceremonial nor Civil Law, of which Tithing was part of. Factually, Jesus didn't "toughen" any of God's laws but rather He revealed their true depth and application. Nothing in the Moral Law changed between the Old and New Covenants. Thus, tithing being part of the Civil/Ceremonial Law was abrogated with the passing of the Israelic theocracy and is no longer binding nor even a consideration as a "standard" to which a believer's conscious is to be bound. If, however, a believer in the new covenant desires to set for himself an amount of 10%+, then this is perfectly legitimate. Doing so is, however, a personal matter between the believer and the Lord and cannot be pressed upon another, especially by the church, since it is strictly a matter of conscience.

On your second point, I agree that "giving may be more of less than 10%", but again, the 10% figure is not to be deemed "the" or even "a" standard by which one should regulate cheerful giving. For those whose income provides more than the necessities of life, giving 10% or more may be no sacrifice. But again, 10% cannot be used as the standard by which one is to determine what sacrificial means. On the other hand, those who are barely making ends meet, having to give 10% would be a hardship indeed. A sacrifice is the giving of that which takes away from what is a necessity and/or something greatly desired. And so, the amount given will undoubtedly vary greatly with individuals/families.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37324 - Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:28 PM Re: The Tithe [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Robin Offline
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Florida
Hear hear! You said it better than I could. It is certainly not in keeping with Jesus' teaching for the church to impose any particular figure, percentage or otherwise, as the standard of giving.

Thanks!

#37325 - Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:13 PM Re: The Tithe [Re: Peter]  
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Tom Online content
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Quote
Boanerges said:
Not to beat a dead horse but a recent White Horse Inn podcast had all of the hosts agreeing that the tithe was an Old Covenant institution and that the New Covenant command was giving cheerfully. However, they did say (if I recall correctly) that the tithe was a good yardstick if you wanted to use it.


This is the also my wife and my belief on the subject. We have been using the tithe as a yardstick for quite a few years now.

Tom


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