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#37832 - Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:47 AM Seemless Garment  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
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Recently I heard one of the Word of Faith teachers make the claim that Jesus was rich and one of the proofs he used was the seamless garment Jesus wore at his crucifixion. According to this person, only the very rich in that era had garments like this.

Not knowing a lot about this particular issue, I thought I would see if anyone on this board knows anything about clothes of that era, particularly the issue at hand.

Thanks in advance
Tom

#37833 - Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:24 PM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Tom]  
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gnarley Offline
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gnarley  Offline
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Could you identify the "name it & claim it" speaker that made such a statement?


gil
#37834 - Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:44 AM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Tom]  
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J_Edwards Offline
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Quote
Tom said:
Recently I heard one of the Word of Faith teachers make the claim that Jesus was rich and one of the proofs he used was the seamless garment Jesus wore at his crucifixion. According to this person, only the very rich in that era had garments like this.

Not knowing a lot about this particular issue, I thought I would see if anyone on this board knows anything about clothes of that era, particularly the issue at hand.

Thanks in advance
Tom

A Jewish man would typically wear five items of clothing: outer garment, a tunic, a belt, sandals, and presumably a head covering. The tunic --the seamless garment was likely given to Jesus as a gift from his mother, since it was customary for Jewish mothers to make such a garment for their sons as a last gift before they entered the world on their own. However, there is also speculation from Luke 8:3 that “Joanna the wife of Chuzas Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, who ministered unto them of their substance."

Quote
The robe (many translations “tunic”) was a long garment worn next to the skin. That it was made of one piece of woven cloth, without any seams in it precluded the possibility that it was made of more than one material (note the law of Deut 22.11). This type of garment could be made by an ordinary weaver, so it need not have been expensive.

Barclay Moon Newman and Eugene Albert Nida, A Handbook on the Gospel of John, Originally published: A translator's handbook on the Gospel of John, c1980., Helps for translators; UBS handbook series, 587 (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993], c1980).

Calvin gives a “fitting” answer for your question I believe,

Quote
As to the allegorical meaning to which some men have tortured this passage, by making it mean, that heretics tear Scripture in pieces, it is too far-fetched; though I would not object to such a comparison as this, — that, as the garments of Christ were once divided by ungodly soldiers, so, in the present day, there are perverse men who, by foreign inventions, tear the whole of the Scripture, with which Christ is clothed, in order that he may be manifested to us. …

John Calvin, Calvin's Commentaries: John, electronic ed., Logos Library System; Calvin's Commentaries, Jn 19:23 (Albany, OR: Ages Software, 1998).


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#37835 - Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:32 PM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: gnarley]  
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Tom Offline
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Actually I can't remember which one made the statement. Lately I have read & listened to quite a bit of material by WOF heretics.
I suspect it was made on the tape series called 'Christianity in Crisis' by Hank Hannagraff. Or it could have come from Hank's own site, www.equip.org .

Tom

#37836 - Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:47 PM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Tom]  
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chestnutmare Offline
Annie Oakley
chestnutmare  Offline
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Tom,

Time is short, life is so short. A funeral for a friend of mine reminded me of that fact. Our days are numbered. I know that I have little time of my own. I work to support myself. I think what would I do if I had more time. I think well, I love my mission trips to the Ukraine so okay, this year, I will take on learning Russian so that I can have better conversations with people there. I have theological books that sit on my shelf waiting my reading. I look at people who waste time listening to heresy and say wow, why? How much more could be benefitted by reading godly material. While it is true that we ought to know how the world thinks so that we might respond but I think given shortness of time, far more benefit might come by reading sound words.

Just my opinion.


The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
#37837 - Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:39 AM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: chestnutmare]  
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Tom Offline
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Chestnutmare

I appreciate your concern and personally I wouldn't be reading information like this if I didn't have a reason to.
Lately I have been running into people who are being influenced by these heretics and I feel a need to brush up on my knowledge of what these heretics actually teach.

I must say however, I am starting to think this is a waist of my time, because most of these people do not believe me when I tell them. They are not even interested in me proving to them what I have being trying to tell them.

I suppose all I can do now is pray and be open to the Lord's leading.

By the way, what would you do if people you knew and loved started to tell you to read a book called 'Good Morning Holy Spirit' by Benny Hinn, saying it is one of the best books they ever read?

Tom

#37838 - Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:43 PM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Tom]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Quote
Tom said:
By the way, what would you do if people you knew and loved started to tell you to read a book called 'Good Morning Holy Spirit' by Benny Hinn, saying it is one of the best books they ever read?

Tom,

There comes a time when you have to give them over to the Lord and to their own devices, as hard as it may be to do. This doesn't preclude praying for them, of course. And should any be drawn by the Holy Spirit to hear the truth, be always ready to speak the truth once again.

Quote
Luke 9:4-5 (ASV) "And into whatsoever house ye enter, there abide, and thence depart. And as many as receive you not, when ye depart from that city, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony against them."


In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37839 - Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:23 PM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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[url]There comes a time when you have to give them over to the Lord and to their own devices, as hard as it may be to do. This doesn't preclude praying for them, of course. And should any be drawn by the Holy Spirit to hear the truth, be always ready to speak the truth once again.

Quote
Luke 9:4-5 (ASV) "And into whatsoever house ye enter, there abide, and thence depart. And as many as receive you not, when ye depart from that city, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony against them."


In His grace, [/quote]

Pilgrim
I agree with you, but up until recently I didn't think that time had come. I thought (perhaps naively) that these people were like myself, who when shown proof would eventually give into that proof.
I do however know that the Lord is still sovereign (Rom. 8:28) and if they do eventually submit to the truth, it may or may not have anything to do with me trying to show them that truth.
Sometimes I wonder however, why I keep running into things like this, if I am not to confront them when they occur. Perhaps the Lord intends to grow me, rather than I helping someone see error.

Tom

#37840 - Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:52 PM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Tom]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Tom,

No doubt it's a little of both; letting your light shine by contending for the faith and growing in grace in so doing. There is this insidious idea that has infected the modern church that once you ask Jesus into your life, as the saying goes, everything turns for the better. But in fact, if one is familiar with the Scriptures even in a cursory way, many (most?) of the saints had to go through myriad trials and tribulations. In fact, Paul wrote to Timothy:


2 Timothy 3:12 (ASV) "Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."


The heroes of the faith seem to be those who have given their lives for Christ, literally (cf. Heb 11) and not those who have "made it big". It is the meek, the poor, those who mourn, et al who are most blessed. Yes, there are those very difficult times when we have to heed the words of our precious Saviour:


Matthew 8:22 (ASV) "But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Matthew 10:35-40 (ASV) "For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: and a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."


In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37841 - Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:47 AM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Robin Offline
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Robin  Offline
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This has been one the toughest lessons of my life. ExCharisma began as an effort to rescue people who were caught up in the same crazy stuff I had been captured and damaged by. But I quickly discovered that people caught up in "charismania" do not seek a way out until two things happen:

1 - The teachings finally fail them enough to make them finally question the teachings rather than their own ability to "conjure up enough faith" to make the teachings "work," and

2 - They reach a point where they want to "get back to basics" and return to something solid and unchanging upon which to anchor themselves, rather than the constantly shifting sands of charismatic spiritual "movements."

Unless they want to change, we can't change them. But when the superstitions and myths they cling to finally fail them for the umpteenth time and they finally realize that God isn't dpendent upon them to "believe hard enough" but that they are only totally dependent upon Him (even for the faith to believe) to do for them what they cannot ever do for themselves, then at some point they will dig into the unchanging and infallible word of God in a desperate search for something real.

All too often, though, when "charismania" fails people, they abandon Christianity ("I tried the Jesus thing - it didn't work") altogether. I think they are worse off than before when they think they know what Christianity is (even though they may never have actually seen the real thing) and rejected it. But some, thankfully, are driven to the truth rather than away from it. ExCharisma (now here on the Highway) is for them. The others will not listen and will stubbornly cling to their superstitions even after they have proven to be false - assuming that the failure is in them rather than in the false teachings.

#37842 - Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:37 AM Re: Seemless Garment [Re: Robin]  
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Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Robin

After reading your post, it brought back memories of my own WOF days.
In my case nobody really challenged those beliefs with facts, it had more to do with disappointment after disappointment in the faith message I was taught.
These faith teachers claimed some pretty fantastic things and even though I went to quite a few of their miracle crusades, I never saw one miracle that I knew was 100% genuine.
One thing is certain; many of these WOF heretics have a way of getting people to follow after them.
When one is in the movement, they are too close to it to see the big picture. Now I see that it isn't good enough to tell them what the big picture looks like. When one tries chances are they will not believe it anyway. They must (if they ever do) come to the point that they become disillusioned and only then will see the big picture.

Tom


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