Donations for the month of November


We have received a total of $100 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
John_C
John_C
Mississippi Gulf Coast
Posts: 1,748
Joined: September 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,533
Posts50,715
Members921
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,297
Tom 3,305
chestnutmare 2,862
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,748
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 24
Pilgrim 17
John_C 2
Recent Posts
Law and Grace
by Tom. Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:21 PM
The Church of England Announcement
by Tom. Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:11 PM
Why I hate the left
by Pilgrim. Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:42 PM
What is a missionary work
by Pilgrim. Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:07 AM
Terrorist Attacks
by AJ Castellitto. Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:08 AM
Theonomy
by Pilgrim. Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:54 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#38319 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:18 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 360
Theo Offline
Old Hand
Theo  Offline
Old Hand

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 360
Brother,

The way I look at this question is this: our nature was corrupted by the Fall and that we inherit this corrupted nature from our parents (sort of "spiritual DNA") just as surely as we inherit our physical characteristics. In my mind that avoids the problem with which you seem to be wrestling, and upholds the doctrine of original sin.

May God bless you as you work through these things.

Theo

#38320 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:57 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Pilgrim,

Thank you my brother for your care and concern for me. Judging from the time that it took you for your post, I know you very carefully considered your words.

Quote

Pilgrim said:
To deny the inherent corruption of an individual's nature/soul is of necessity to deny the perfect righteousness of Christ and the need to have it imputed unto salvation.


It is my present belief that to deny an infused corruption of our soul does not deny the righteousness of Christ. Men, even Adam in the garden before the fall, have never had true righteousness without the covering of God's justification. This is the very reason that after the sin of Adam, our first parents reallized that they were naked. What happened in the garden was not the destruction of Adam's will and nature nor the nature of his children, but a change in his status, in God's eyes, from being on probation, to his expulsion from the garden to a prison on death row (our present world).

I read Shedd's article and he says this:

Quote

God has the right to demand from every one of his responsible creatures, all that the creature might be, had he retained possession of the endowments which he received at creation, and had he employed them with fidelity.


If Adam had received all of God's endowments of freedom why did he sin? It may be easily argued that Adam had "total depravity" before the fall. This proves that man has never had true freedom apart from the justifying righteousness and/or the authority of his Creator Alone.

Quote

And where is this "elsewhere" which you now believe historic biblical Protestantism has erred? And what group, philosophy, religion has convinced you otherwise?


As I have already stated in my posts the "elsewhere" is in the Reformed doctrine of a corrupted or "sinful nature". They have taken the word "imputed" to literally mean "infused". In the second part of your question, "who has convinced you otherwise" may be turned around by me to ask you the very same question; Who or what religion has convinced you that we are totally depraved? It is my assertion, by my present understanding that the Scripture teaches we are not totally depraved but totally incabable of justifying ourselves with an inherant deified righteousness and never have been. This absolutely includes Adam before the fall.

Quote

Pilgrim said:
My dear brother, what you are now proposing, i.e., what you now know is so seriously contrary to biblical truth that my heart is struck with fear for your soul.


I knew the second that I posted this thread that the conversation would eventually degenerate into this. This is an un-Christian judgment towards your brother who believes with all his heart in the justifying righteousness of Christ Jesus alone.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#38321 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:47 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Denny, my brother,

I must concur with what Jeff has said regarding the fear for your soul. What you are saying is directly opposite the truth of Scripture and does indeed have a profound impact on how you understand what it means to be justified by faith alone. You have rightly, I think, sensed that this is not minor disagreement but goes to the heart of the Christian religion, that is, how may we be reconciled to God?

Quote
The first way is by believing that it is populated by people who are sinners by nature. I now believe that the consequences of this belief cannot help but take its toll in our attitude and respect towards our God, our neighbors or ourselves.


Will you please show how this is? This indeed seems to be what Paul believed, for example, per Rom. 3. And what effect did it have on his attitude and respect toward God, his neighbors, and himself? We are all sinners, born in sin, deserving the wrath of God. We are all in the same boat! But God, being rich in mercy, has determined to love and to save some of these poor sinners in spite of them being enemies toward Him. And these He also conforms to the image of His Son.

Quote
The second way is by looking at our world as being populated by people who are sinners by an oppressive administration of deceit and evil. There is no truth in it but the truth of our spiritual need which the world deceitfully provides at the expense of our own ignorance. A world where all men cry out like lost dogs, without a master for food and discipline. Many even regress to becoming unpardonable spiritual or literal wolves. A world where nature itself does not care, with a single tear, whether someone lives or dies forever. All of this except by the grace of God.


Denny, sin lies within each and every man.

Gen. 6:5: "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

Ps. 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."

Mark 7:20-23: "And He was saying, 'That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.'"

Rom. 3:9-18: "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.' 'Their throat is an open grace, with their tongues they keep deceiving,' 'the poison of asps is under their lips'; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness'; 'their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known.' 'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'"

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Quote
When I first heard and believed the Biblical doctrine of Justification by Faith (in the work of Christ) Alone, my knees nearly buckled with joy. I now believe my joy was so intense,... that I soon believed if the Reformed could show me this absolutely liberating truth they could do no wrong elsewhere. This was my idolatry.


I do not see that Reformed theology has done wrong here, my friend. Indeed, were it not for the truth of Total Depravity which was the one thing I knew to be true, I would not count myself Reformed today.

Quote
Kyle, please pray for me.


I will, brother.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#38322 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:47 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Kyle,

Thanks for your post and future prayers.

Quote

Kyle said:
I do not see that Reformed theology has done wrong here, my friend. Indeed, were it not for the truth of Total Depravity which was the one thing I knew to be true, I would not count myself Reformed today.


Kyle I'm sorry but I can almost say that this is off thread.

The Lord knows that I know I am a sinner.

The issue remains on whether we are still free moral agents with total responsibility for our sins with punishment due in our own person, that is, unless our sins have been propituated. My charge is that if God had given us or even allowed a changed or corrupted "sinful nature", God logically then, becomes the author of sin.

Quote

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins


This is true because we are sinners of necessity in this world. We are born ignorant of what should be to us obvious. It is not that we are not still created "good" and in God's image but that we have been condemned to a world in which we are "on our own" and sinfully believing that we have no need of God's gracious justification, guidance and authority. This was the wish of Adam in his original sin. And this is why we must be born again.

Calvin agrees with this in his Short Treatise:

Quote

many inquire not to know the truth, but to get answers to their liking. And our Lord, in order to punish them for their hypocrisy, lets them find what they are seeking.


This is exactly what Adam did, as he was not deceived, and this is exactly what the Lord did in giving Adam and Eve their own world under their own administration that He had created. In His infinite wisdom He gave Adam and therefore Adam's children their heart's desire without changing their nature in any way.

Jesus also agrees that this is what God would do, in Matthew 5:40:

Quote

If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.


We must remember that the sin of Adam was in the legal context of the covenant of works. Adam's sin was therefore the world's first lawsuit.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#38323 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:22 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: William]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
William Offline
Addict
William  Offline
Addict

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
Quote
William said:


I believe that when Adam fell and became responsible to God for his action his whole nature turned immediately around and he became totally depraved, a lover of iniquity and a hater of God.

Although Adam could not sin very much yet, adultery, steal, get drunk he was still totally depraved.

Original sin in his descendents I believe is imputed and yet man develops in time more and more ways to sin yet all men are equally totally depraved by nature.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.





Contained in the doctrine of total depravity is not only that the world is populated with people who are sinners and are sinning, Arminians believe that, but that <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">the world is filled with people who are already condemned</span> except they be regenerated by the power of God.

Therefore as <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">by the offence of one [color:"FF0000"]judgment[/color]</span> came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18


.




#38324 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:56 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,297
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,297
NH, USA
Quote
Adopted said:
The issue remains on whether we are still free moral agents with total responsibility for our sins with punishment due in our own person, that is, unless our sins have been propituated. My charge is that if God had given us or even allowed a changed or corrupted "sinful nature", God logically then, becomes the author of sin.

Denny,

1) ALL men are born as "free moral agents"! Calvinism not only denies the contrary but is the one system which stresses it more than another other, thus making ALL men responsible for their individual choices. However, there is a vast chasm between being a "free moral agent" and having a "free will", i.e., the ability to choose contrary to one's nature. A free moral agent has total freedom to choose according to his desires which flow from one's nature. If that nature is spiritual dead (corrupt, depraved), then it will and CAN only choose sin.

2) Let's take your proposition that if "God had given us or even allowed a changed or corrupted sinful nature, God logically then, becomes the author of sin" and apply it to another example. If a father sets defined parameters within his household to which his children must comply, else receive punishment and a child violates one of those rules, the child is legally subject to the punishment for that violation. Not many would argue that the father has no right to punish the child. But the punishment given does not make the father guilty of the child's transgression.

Likewise, God told Adam that in the very day he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die; i.e., he would suffer a tri-fold death: spiritual, physical and eternal. That spiritual death we call "total depravity", aka: a corrupt nature. This corruption effected Adam and Eve in their "predisposition/inclination" toward God. Where originally, they were predisposed/inclined to love God and to seek after perfect obedience before Him. Should they disobey the singular law given them, that disposition/inclination would be forfeited. Now, is it logical that God can be charged with being guilty of sin because Adam sinned? or that Adam received the just punishment due to his transgression? NO.... may God be true and all men liars. God did not CREATE Adam with a corrupt nature; he was created "very good". Adam suffered the punishment DUE as a result of his transgression. An earthly Judge is not guilty of some heinous crime for sentencing a convicted murderer to death. God could have vaporized Adam and Eve if He willed. Rather He chose to simply remove that which was given to Adam out of His own good pleasure.


Romans 9:14-24 (ASV) "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, [even] us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?"


It was also God's perfect will to appoint Adam as the Federal Head of the human race. And, thus whatever Adam chose to do would have a lasting affect upon all his progeny. (cf. Rom 5:12-18) And it is upon this very principle of corporate solidarity (Federal Headship) that sinners are saved in Christ. To deny the former of necessity denies the latter. Deny Adam's headship, his transgression with the commensurate punishment of depravity and guilt upon himself and all who are born of him, is to deny Christ's headship and the blessing of salvation upon all those who are given to believe upon Him.

Lastly, I would still like to know who, what and/or where you have come upon this evil influence that has evidently caused you to fall away from the truth which is in Christ Jesus?

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#38325 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:22 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,297
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,297
NH, USA
Quote
Adopted said:
It is my present belief that to deny an infused corruption of our soul does not deny the righteousness of Christ. Men, even Adam in the garden before the fall, have never had true righteousness without the covering of God's justification. This is the very reason that after the sin of Adam, our first parents reallized that they were naked. What happened in the garden was not the destruction of Adam's will and nature nor the nature of his children, but a change in his status, in God's eyes, from being on probation, to his expulsion from the garden to a prison on death row (our present world).

Denny,

1) An "infused" corruption means to 'add to that which is already existent'. And even IF that were true, for arguments sake, the end result is the same... i.e., the nature is corrupted.

2) Could you please provide biblical support for your proposition that "Adam before the Fall... never had true righteousness without the covering of God's justification"? Such a proposal would mean that Adam possessed some measure of guilt, i.e., he had transgressed a law of God and needed an alien "righteousness". I find no such teaching, but perhaps I have missed it over the years?

3) Would you please exegete Genesis 2:16,17 for me please?


"And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."



4) The Garden of Eden was part of God's created world. It was simply a place made for Adam and Eve to dwell. Due to Adam's transgression the entire world was subjected to corruption (Gen 3:17b-18a; Rom 8:19-22) and metaphorically groans and awaits its redemption. There is no biblical warrant to bifurcate the Garden of Eden from the rest of the earth.

Quote
Adopted said:
If Adam had received all of God's endowments of freedom why did he sin? It may be easily argued that Adam had "total depravity" before the fall. This proves that man has never had true freedom apart from the justifying righteousness and/or the authority of his Creator Alone.

1) Why did Adam sin? If you are able to answer that one, you will be the first in history to do so. The greater question is, How did Satan sin since he too was created perfect and additionally had no outside evil influence to entice him to rebel against God.

2) Again, it remains for you to show from Scripture that Adam needed an alien righteousness before the Fall.

3) No creature has freedom (autonomy) that is not under the direct authority of God, Who is the blessed Creator of all. Surely, I need not supply the plethora of biblical passages that show this to be incontrovertibly true.

Quote
Adopted asks:
Who or what religion has convinced you that we are totally depraved? It is my assertion, by my present understanding that the Scripture teaches we are not totally depraved but totally incabable of justifying ourselves with an inherant deified righteousness and never have been. This absolutely includes Adam before the fall.

No one nor any religion convinced me that I was totally depraved. a) On the intellectual perspective, it was from my own private reading of the Scriptures that I came to know the truth about not only the depravity of nature of the entire human race, but also b) through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit speaking to my mind, heart and soul in the Scriptures read.

The onus is upon you now to show from Scripture that all the confessions, creeds and catechisms of all the Reformational churches are universally wrong in their understanding of the doctrine of both Original Sin and the doctrine of Total Depravity. I wish you well in your attempt. If you feel incapable of doing so yet feel someone else has succeeded in refuting these things, could you please provide a link to a source?

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#38326 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:54 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Quote
Adopted said:

The issue remains on whether we are still free moral agents with total responsibility for our sins with punishment due in our own person, that is, unless our sins have been propituated. My charge is that if God had given us or even allowed a changed or corrupted "sinful nature", God logically then, becomes the author of sin.


Denny, logically, to avoid the charge of "author of sin" against God in your understanding here would require that God be something less than absolutely sovereign over His creation. The problem for you remains that there is indeed sin in this world, whether or not that sin indwells individual human beings rather than oppressing them from without as you seem to be proposing.

Quote
This is exactly what Adam did, as he was not deceived, and this is exactly what the Lord did in giving Adam and Eve their own world under their own administration that He had created. In His infinite wisdom He gave Adam and therefore Adam's children their heart's desire without changing their nature in any way.


There is no "infusion" of a sinful nature. God didn't make men sinful! Men are sinners in themselves from conception because they are sinners in Adam from the Fall. Adam forfeited his righteousness, and the righteousness of all in him, in that first sin. All men hence are born unrighteous, with hearts fundamentally opposed to God, not merely ignorant.

As our Lord Jesus said, what defiles a man proceeds out from his own heart.

I don't think you've really thought this through, Denny. It is evident you've been influenced by someone or something recently, but this is the devil's work. Be wary of it, do not be captivated by his wiles.

My brother, my heart is breaking because I really think you have fallen under some kind of deception! Please do not brush off what I am saying.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#38327 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Pilgrim,

Quote

If that nature is spiritual dead (corrupt, depraved), then it will and CAN only choose sin.


Yes, I agree that we are born spiritually dead in this world as a result of the sin of Adam. Why can't we say instead, that we cannot choose righteousness because we don't even know what it is, nor did Adam before the fall. We are not sinners because of a defect in our nature or "depraved" but because we have lost God's justifying righteousness. Adam was created "good" and as long as he was obedient, he was covered by God's life giving justification. We cannot justify ourselves by our own obedience nor could Adam even before the fall. I believe that this is what the tree of life was for.

Why do you insist that the limitations (inability to justify ourselves) yet pronounced goodness of our nature has changed, when what has changed is the withdrawal of God's gracious and life giving favor towards Adam and his children due to disobedience? This is what the words "imputed sin" means. Not in us (because we were created good) but credited to us because of our sure disobedience of necessity (sin) to come in a corrupted world that we have inherited from our father Adam.

To put this in another way is to say that sin comes naturally to us in this world, not because of our nature (which was created and remains good and in His image) but because of our fear and knowledge of God's just judgment of death. It is the fear of death that encourages men to hate their Creator and justify or attempt to deify themselves at the expense and even murder of others. It is the fear of death that drives people insane and it is the fear of death in our corrupted world that ultimately drives people to unbelief and unrepentant sin.

Finally I must say this once again. I believe that for us to believe that God put something in us to make us sinners, or that our neighbor has a "sinful nature" or that we have a "corrupted nature" in ourselves, is a mishandling of God's words in Scripture. To say this only gives us reason to be suspicious of God's goodness, to hate our neighbor and to bring an evil psychological sword against our own person. I believe the truth is that we corrupt ourselves into bondage by sin, and bondage is against our very own nature.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#38328 - Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:18 PM Re: Original Sin [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,297
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,297
NH, USA
Denny,

Okay, so you have stated several times WHAT you believe, which is not only contrary to Reformed theology but even Arminian theology. What you have not done is to support this view from Scripture. From what you have written, it sounds nearly that what Pelagius was teaching in the 4th century and which has been universally rejected as damnable heresy. I for one, and I suspect there are many others who would really like to know (3rd time asking) WHERE and/or from WHOM you have gotten this strange view(s). I cannot believe you have had a complete change of mind from reading the Scriptures in solitude.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#38329 - Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:25 AM Re: Original Sin [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Pilgrim,

Quote

Okay, so you have stated several times WHAT you believe, which is not only contrary to Reformed theology but even Arminian theology. What you have not done is to support this view from Scripture. From what you have written, it sounds nearly that what Pelagius was teaching in the 4th century and which has been universally rejected as damnable heresy. I for one, and I suspect there are many others who would really like to know (3rd time asking) WHERE and/or from WHOM you have gotten this strange view(s). I cannot believe you have had a complete change of mind from reading the Scriptures in solitude.


I just don't have the will to continue this argument at least at this time. I need some time to rest and reflect about what was said. It suffices to say that I do not now believe "Calvinism" has a perfect system in all matters of our faith as you claim. My crisis and trouble is not in my faith in the Scripture but in my blind faith in the total of Reformed thought. You are right, that what I've been trying to say is not Reformed, nor Arminian. nor is it Pelegian as I clearly stated that is is impossible for us to justify ourselves with our own limited free will by obedience to God's commands.

I will reply to your last question in a private message as this is where I think, at least at present, it belongs.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Last edited by Adopted; Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:05 AM.

Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 17 guests, and 99 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
drewk, patrice, Robert1962, Ron, billmcginnis
921 Registered Users
Shout Box
November
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Today's Birthdays
Bob
Popular Topics(Views)
652,369 Gospel truth
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.052s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 2.6913 MB (Peak: 3.0008 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-11-23 07:32:10 UTC