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#38438 - Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:38 PM Re: infallible born again spirit [Re: John_C]  
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

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Thanks for the correction! Yes, only Jesus has two "natures" - fully God and fully man.

#38439 - Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:58 PM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
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germany
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
evangelist said:
Quote
Boanerges said:
You don't mind defending this view from Scripture do you? Show us where the Bible teaches that the "born again spirit" is "perfect and infallible".


2Co:5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Jo:4:17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


None of these say that we have a perfect, infallible, born-again spirit. And the Holy Spirit is not a human born-again spirit.
<font size="5">Your Text</font>

Does the Holy Spirit now also live in us as born again children?
Do we have the same spirit in us or a brand new one and where did that spirit come from?Would God give us a brand new unperfect spirit which come from Him as our gift or give us a broken gift not made whole???

I let you figure the rest, so you can do some home work, biblically.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38440 - Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:01 PM Re: infallible born again spirit [Re: Robin]  
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evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
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germany
Quote
Robin said:
Quote
evangelist attempts to prove his assertion by quoting:

2Co:5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Jo:4:17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


He is indeed a new creature just as 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says - a creature with two natures (not three) at war with one another (Romans 7:14-8:8 and Galatians 5:17). The spirit is not infallible, otherwise Paul would not have encouraged the Corinthians to "cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2nd Corinthians 7:1)."

Ephesians 1:13 describes "sealing" by the Holy Spirit, not regeneration of humans spirits. To seal is to set apart, as in a promissory note - to seal a contract. The seal of the Holy Spirit is the certainty of salvation for those who believe. It does not describe the perfection of the thing sealed. It speaks of the future rather than the present.

1st John 4:17 describes how love is perfected in us by our abiding in God (verse 16), so that we may rest in that love with full assurance through trials and tribulations. It is His love, not some human infallibility that gives us that hope.

None of those verses suggest any such inward infallibility given to the elect before the redemption of our bodies at the last day.


So you don't believe in the trinity niether?

What is that spirit in 1 Thess 5:23 if we are only two part as you think, because the bible teaches differently???


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38441 - Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:04 PM Re: infallible born again spirit [Re: John_C]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
Journeyman

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germany
Quote
John_C said:
Robin,

I agree with you overall.

However, technically man has only one nature. Only Jesus has two natures. I think we are confusing nature with the makeup of man being part material and nonmaterial.


So know we have a confussion in who we are ?
Are we justr one ,or two part , or three parts like the bible say?
I guss we need alot of researching to done here.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38442 - Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:07 PM Re: infallible born again spirit [Re: Robin]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
Journeyman

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Posts: 77
germany
Quote
Robin said:
Thanks for the correction! Yes, only Jesus has two "natures" - fully God and fully man.


Who is God, and what is He ?
You forgot that important third part!

Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38443 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:37 AM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: Tom]  
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evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
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germany
Quote
Tom said:
evangelist

What gives you the idea that the answers given so far conflict with the Bible?
The onus is on you to show where and how they conflict with the Bible.
Your statement makes it sound like you believe that once someone uses language outside of the Bible to explain what the Bible means, they are automatically "man's theology" and therefore wrong.
Is this what you believe?

Tom


Yes!
I look at the bible as my final authority.
if i was RCC i might have another belief.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38444 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:34 AM Re: infallible born again spirit [Re: evangelist]  
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Florida
You have not proved your assertion from the Scripture that man is a three-part being. Man is a two-part being: Flesh and spirit, visible and invisible. God is a three-Person Being, not three "parts." Jesus said "God is a spirit (John 4:24)."

The fact that we are made in His image doesn't mean that humans are composed of three persons in one body and spirit, nor three parts as you and other false teachers claim. When one receives a "new nature" by being converted, he or she is not morphed into a three-part being! Rather the "inner man" (or soul, or spirit) is regenerated ("born again"). A new spirit is not added to converted men, making them trichonomous beings as opposed to unregenerate men who are dichonomous.

It's hard to even make sense of what you're trying to say, but if you're saying what it sounds like you're teaching, it is indefensible from Scripture. None of the Scriptures you have cited teach any such thing, and merely quoting them out of context doesn't prove your assetions.

#38445 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:14 AM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: evangelist]  
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Paul_S Offline
Old Hand
Paul_S  Offline
Old Hand

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Posts: 418
The Bronx, NY
Evangelist,

You have been playing a game here with people who have been patiently trying to instruct you. In your game of Bible Interpretation, you take a small number of verses which you need to establish your point, and then reject all other references which go against your point, but which are easily explained as being in agreement with the verses you have selected.

I am going to play your game now, with you:

Evangelist, you said that you consist of three parts--body, soul and spirit[/b]. What's wrong with you? Who programmed you to think that way? Don't you know that you actually have TEN PARTS ?????

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind (Luke 13:27)

So far, that's:

1) heart,
2) soul,
3) strength,
4) mind


Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. (2 Corinthians 4:16)

That adds:

5) outer man,
6) inner man


the life of a creature is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11)

Which brings it up to

7) life,
8) blood


May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23--see, I even used your favorite verse!)

Which rounds out the complete list with:

9) spirit,
10) body


So tell me, Evangelist, are you assuming the Bible contradicts itself?

You have been trying to tell us that man has only three parts but anyone can see clearly that we really have TEN PARTS!!!!!


In Christ,
Paul S
#38446 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:07 AM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: evangelist]  
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Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Quote
evangelist said:
Does the Holy Spirit now also live in us as born again children?
Do we have the same spirit in us or a brand new one and where did that spirit come from?Would God give us a brand new unperfect spirit which come from Him as our gift or give us a broken gift not made whole???

I let you figure the rest, so you can do some home work, biblically.


The Holy Spirit indwells us, He does not become a "part" of us. We have a body and a soul/spirit. Soul and spirit, with referrence to human beings, mean the same thing: the immaterial (non-physical) part of human nature.

Are you getting these ideas from Watchman Nee?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#38447 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:10 PM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: evangelist]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,377
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,377
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Quote
evangelist said:
Quote
Tom said:
evangelist

What gives you the idea that the answers given so far conflict with the Bible?
The onus is on you to show where and how they conflict with the Bible.
Your statement makes it sound like you believe that once someone uses language outside of the Bible to explain what the Bible means, they are automatically "man's theology" and therefore wrong.
Is this what you believe?

Tom


Yes!
I look at the bible as my final authority.
if i was RCC i might have another belief.


You did not answer my question.
In order to understand what a Bible passage says, one has to know things like context, etc...
This is one of the reasons why there are so many different cults and organization such as the Word of Faith movement, that use Scripture to justify what they believe on a given subject. However, they use these passages in a manner that that brings their own meaning into the passage, rather than using letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

Do you understand what I am getting at?

Tom

#38448 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:15 PM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: Paul_S]  
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Posts: 3,377
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,377
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Paul

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" /> That is exactly what I was trying to say in my last message to evangelist.

Tom

#38449 - Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:50 PM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: Paul_S]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Peter Offline
Old Hand
Peter  Offline
Old Hand

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
USA
Nice.. . All right Evangelist I'm waiting to read your response.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#38450 - Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:43 AM Re: infallible born again spirit [Re: Robin]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
germany
Quote
Robin said:
You have not proved your assertion from the Scripture that man is a three-part being. Man is a two-part being: Flesh and spirit, visible and invisible. God is a three-Person Being, not three "parts." Jesus said "God is a spirit (John 4:24)."

The fact that we are made in His image doesn't mean that humans are composed of three persons in one body and spirit, nor three parts as you and other false teachers claim. When one receives a "new nature" by being converted, he or she is not morphed into a three-part being! Rather the "inner man" (or soul, or spirit) is regenerated ("born again"). A new spirit is not added to converted men, making them trichonomous beings as opposed to unregenerate men who are dichonomous.

It's hard to even make sense of what you're trying to say, but if you're saying what it sounds like you're teaching, it is indefensible from Scripture. None of the Scriptures you have cited teach any such thing, and merely quoting them out of context doesn't prove your assetions.


1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the three parts YOUR spirit.
2.YOUR soul
3.Your body meaning yours which belongs to you which is biblically three part which is yours.

Ec:12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Proverb:20:27: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

So the scriptures show we have a spirit in us which is a part of yours.,
We know we have a soul, and third they both live in a body.
So how many part does the bible teaches we have?


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38451 - Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:51 AM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: Paul_S]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
germany
Quote
Paul_S said:
Evangelist,

You have been playing a game here with people who have been patiently trying to instruct you. In your game of Bible Interpretation, you take a small number of verses which you need to establish your point, and then reject all other references which go against your point, but which are easily explained as being in agreement with the verses you have selected.

I am going to play your game now, with you:

Evangelist, you said that you consist of three parts--body, soul and spirit[/b]. What's wrong with you? Who programmed you to think that way? Don't you know that you actually have TEN PARTS ?????

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind (Luke 13:27)

So far, that's:

1) heart,
2) soul,
3) strength,
4) mind


Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. (2 Corinthians 4:16)

That adds:

5) outer man,
6) inner man


the life of a creature is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11)

Which brings it up to

7) life,
8) blood


May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23--see, I even used your favorite verse!)

Which rounds out the complete list with:

9) spirit,
10) body


So tell me, Evangelist, are you assuming the Bible contradicts itself?

You have been trying to tell us that man has only three parts but anyone can see clearly that we really have TEN PARTS!!!!!


You pointed out four parts but it is only three part because using strengh would be your body so invent something else!

That is like saying my mind and my thoughts, and thinking are also three different things.

I don't know who you mean everybody , but many lack knowledge of the truth and don't know who they are .
I had this same issue with the JHW so I know what you are thinking about this issue.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
#38452 - Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:55 AM Re: we have a infallible born again spirit ,but ou [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
evangelist Offline
Journeyman
evangelist  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
germany
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
evangelist said:
Does the Holy Spirit now also live in us as born again children?
Do we have the same spirit in us or a brand new one and where did that spirit come from?Would God give us a brand new unperfect spirit which come from Him as our gift or give us a broken gift not made whole???

I let you figure the rest, so you can do some home work, biblically.


The Holy Spirit indwells us, He does not become a "part" of us. We have a body and a soul/spirit. Soul and spirit, with referrence to human beings, mean the same thing: the immaterial (non-physical) part of human nature.

Are you getting these ideas from Watchman Nee?


So what is that which we recieved when a person get born again?Do we get a new incorruptible seed, or not?
Does everyone remain the same so a sinner doesn't need a brand new spirit ?


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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