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#39242 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:31 PM My first question?  
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Please, let me start by saying that I am trying to understand Christianity in general and that I do not wish to ever suggest or imply that your faith is in error when I post questions. If, at any time, I write anything that is improper or offensive, please let me know that I have stepped out of bounds!
One of the several reasons that Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah is that it is claimed that He is without sin, yet he was baptised. Could someone explain why that was necessary? TIA
Patty

#39243 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:51 PM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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Matthew 3:13-17 says:

Quote
13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."


John himself at first questioned Jesus' need to be baptized. But Jesus said it must be done to fulfill all righteousness. In other words, if Jesus had NOT been baptized, He would not have been perfect!


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#39244 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:25 PM Re: My first question? [Re: MarieP]  
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I am still not understanding. He wasn't perfect before that point in time? I guess I am not understanding the "fulfill all righteousness".
Thank you for responding!

#39245 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:55 PM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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Quote
plt said:
I am still not understanding. He wasn't perfect before that point in time? . . .

Thank you for responding!


Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Yes, Jesus was sinless at the time of His baptism. The Holy Spirit had always dwelt in Jesus but at baptism He was endued with the Holy Spirit in a remarkable and extraordinary manner[color:"0000FF"] "to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound".[/color]


[color:"0000FF"]Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
[/color]



.




#39246 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 PM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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Yes, Christ was perfect before this time. The Law of God not only forbids us from doing certain, but it commands us to do certain things. That is why we cannot live up to God's standard...as the Psalmist said, "I have seen a limit to all perfection; Your commandment is exceedingly broad" (119:96).

Why did Christ fulfill all righteousness?

Isaiah explains for us:

Quote
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors (53:4-12).


It was so the many would be justified. While here the sacrificial aspects are highlighted, Isaiah elsewhere says:

Quote
10 I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its sprouts,
And as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise
To spring up before all the nations (61:10-11).


Jeremiah also says that, in the days of the Messiah, the saved will call God by the name "The LORD our righteousness" (23:6, 33:16).


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#39247 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:32 PM Re: My first question? [Re: MarieP]  
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I love Isaiah! I will show you the same passage in my bible, it does read a bit differently. Thank you for the responses. I am understanding (slowly but surely!)
Isaiah 53
JPS Tanakh


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

#39248 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:31 PM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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That is not that different than the text in my Bible. How would you interpret Isaiah here?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#39249 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:13 PM Re: My first question? [Re: MarieP]  
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I know that Christians interpret these verses as fortelling the coming of the Messiah. Jewish interpretation can best be explained at this link: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq136.html
I will let them interpret for me as I am not very good at these kinds of things. Plus this site explains the believed Christian mistranslations as well.

#39250 - Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:57 PM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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Quote
plt said:
Please, let me start by saying that I am trying to understand Christianity in general and that I do not wish to ever suggest or imply that your faith is in error when I post questions. If, at any time, I write anything that is improper or offensive, please let me know that I have stepped out of bounds!
One of the several reasons that Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah is that it is claimed that He is without sin, yet he was baptised. Could someone explain why that was necessary? TIA
Patty


Hi Patty,

Jesus was sinless, that is true, and John the Baptist recognized it. When Jesus came to John to be baptized, John said, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" John objected because baptism signifies purification from sin, but Jesus needed no such purification. However, Jesus answered, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:14-15). What was His intention?

Let us first consider what happened in Jesus' baptism. Matthew writes, "After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased'" (Matt. 3:16-17; cf. Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:20-22, John 1:32-34).

Two things here. First, in His baptism, Jesus received the anointing of the Holy Spirit in full measure, to strengthen Him as He began His gospel ministry. With the power of the Spirit, Jesus would resist Satan's temptations in the wilderness, preach the Word of God with power and authority, cast out demons and heal the sick, endure the terrible suffering of the cross, and rise from the dead. Second, this anointing was from God, who declared publicly that Jesus was His chosen Messiah (Anointed One): "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Quote
<p align="center">from Psalm 2

[1] Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
[3] "Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!"

[4] He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
[5] Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury, saying,
[6] "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

[7] "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today have I begotten You.

[8] 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
[9] 'You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"


So, Jesus was baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and to be declared publicly as the Messiah. However, there is more. The height of Jesus' messianic ministry is His death on the cross. In His baptism, Jesus was confirming His calling and commitment to be "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Commenting on Matthew, William Hendriksen writes,

Quote
It was right that he who had promised to offer himself as a ransom for many ratify this promise by means of submitting to baptism, thereby reaffirming his desire and decision to take upon himself the sin of the world. The water of baptism signifies and seals the washing away of sin, and Jesus by means of this sacrament reveals himself as the Sin-bearer.


In His baptism, Jesus was identifying Himself with the sinners He came to save. Their sins and uncleanness were imputed to Him, and He defeated and destroyed their sins by His death on the cross, rising again the third day in victory. "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4).

I hope you find this helpful!


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#39251 - Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:05 AM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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Patty,

In response to your question concerning the necessity of baptism for Jesus, which was answered by Marie and Kyle above, here is a link to a more extended explanation: John Calvin's commentary on Matthew 3:13-17.

Your question gets to the heart of the matter, because Jesus, in his baptism no less than in his birth, circumcision, life, temptation, condemnation, death, burial and resurrection--in short, his entire life as a man in every respect--came to impute his entire righteousness to the credit of all who believe on him.

The world, and any "world religion" which attempts to craft a righteousness with which to be justified before God, in so doing declares the real, imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ to be dung, but God is not mocked. We urge you to become as Adam and Eve, who crafted bloodless coverings for themselves but were unrighteous in God's sight until he clothed them with bloody skins of an animal slain in their place; the Lamb of God now covers with his own perfect righteousness all who believe on him.


In Christ,
Paul S
#39252 - Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:42 AM Re: My first question? [Re: Paul_S]  
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Thank you. These are excellent explanations regarding my questions and I appreciate you taking time to answer them so completely. These are exactly the responses I was looking for. I am slowly expanding my knowledge and comprehension about the Christian religion. As a Jew, I was often given statements about "what" Christians believe but rarely about "why" they believe it. You are very kind to help me expand my knowledge (and being patient in the process).

#39253 - Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:15 PM Re: My first question? [Re: William]  
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-----

The best person to answer the first posters question is Jesus, the author of our faith (the Word of God)...Heb 12:2 Jesus himself answers your question as to "why" he was baptized at Matthew 3:15. He's teaching us by example to 'fulfill all righteousness'. But remember, baptism doesn't signify a putting away of the filthiness of the flesh, but the answer of a right conscience before God. 1 Pet 3:21

-----

#39254 - Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:05 AM Re: My first question? [Re: plt]  
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Quote
plt said:
One of the several reasons that Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah is that it is claimed that He is without sin, yet he was baptised. Could someone explain why that was necessary?

What would have happened if Jesus had not been baptised? People could have thought three erroneous things. One, that Jesus proudly thought himself better than others. Two, that Jesus thought that baptism for repentance was unnecessary for anyone. Three, that Jesus for some reason disapproved of John.

We must remember that, at the time, few people knew who Jesus was. We must remember that he did not even want people to recognise him on account of his own claim. He referred to himself as 'the son of man' (which we, with hindsight, write as 'the Son of Man'). It was after he had decided to be baptised, after he had been willing to be seen to be the sinner he was not, that there was glory and recognition given to him by supernal means.

#39255 - Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:02 AM Re: My first question? [Re: xyz]  
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Quote
xyz said:
What would have happened if Jesus had not been baptised? People could have thought three erroneous things. One, that Jesus proudly thought himself better than others. Two, that Jesus thought that baptism for repentance was unnecessary for anyone. Three, that Jesus for some reason disapproved of John.

We must remember that, at the time, few people knew who Jesus was. We must remember that he did not even want people to recognise him on account of his own claim. He referred to himself as 'the son of man' (which we, with hindsight, write as 'the Son of Man'). It was after he had decided to be baptised, after he had been willing to be seen to be the sinner he was not, that there was glory and recognition given to him by supernal means.


Never was going to happen Jesus was going to be baptized to accomplish the will of the Father, God had commanded all Jews to be baptized (Matt 13:15) and so Jesus came to be baptized. There is no room for such crass speculation that you suggest xyz.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#39256 - Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:09 AM Re: My first question? [Re: Peter]  
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Boanerges said:
Quote
xyz said:
What would have happened if Jesus had not been baptised? People could have thought three erroneous things. One, that Jesus proudly thought himself better than others. Two, that Jesus thought that baptism for repentance was unnecessary for anyone. Three, that Jesus for some reason disapproved of John.

We must remember that, at the time, few people knew who Jesus was. We must remember that he did not even want people to recognise him on account of his own claim. He referred to himself as 'the son of man' (which we, with hindsight, write as 'the Son of Man'). It was after he had decided to be baptised, after he had been willing to be seen to be the sinner he was not, that there was glory and recognition given to him by supernal means.

Never was going to happen Jesus was going to be baptized to accomplish the will of the Father, God had commanded all Jews to be baptized (Matt 13:15)

That verse does not mention baptism. If Mt 3:15 is intended, that has no command for baptism. Even if there was command for Jews to be baptised, it could not necessarily be extended to Gentiles. There is no general command for water baptism in Scripture, and there was no need for Jesus to be baptised, either to fulfil the Law or for any other reason than those given. John indeed tried to persuade Jesus to actually desist.

The reason for Jesus' baptism is not that it is a model for his disciples to be water baptised, as is so often supposed. The reason was that Jesus, unlike Job, was willing to be thought a sinner when he was not, and for that received divine approval. This willingness was to recur throughout His ministry, and to the ultimate extent possible, on the cross, where the ultimate 'reward' for the Christ was to be won. Jesus' baptism was an inkling of what was to follow. If there is example in this for the saints, it is to be willing to endure false accusation, to 'carry one's cross', which comes to all who would follow Jesus.

The witness of John the B. is mentioned in 1 Jn 5, where in verse 6 we read:

'This is the one who came by water and blood Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.' (NIV)

'A matter will be established by two or three witnesses.' God provides not two, but three witnesses to the Son. Here is John's witness:

'I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptising with water was that he might be revealed to Israel." Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptise with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptise with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."' Jn 1:31-34 NIV

So the water of His baptism 'announced' Jesus as the innocent Lamb of God, the blood of the cross 'confirmed' it, and the Holy Spirit 'draws all men' to Jesus, even though most reject Him, because the Spirit convicts them of their sin, of Jesus' righteousness, and of the judgement that operates in their minds even as they reject Him.

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