Tom
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Paul_S said:9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16in their paths are ruin and misery, 17and the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3, ESV) John did not know who Jesus was.
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xyz,
At this point your responses to some questions and complete avoidance of other questions has succeeded in making your position impenetrable to at least my own mind.
If you are so inclined, a summary statement on your part might make your position more clear.
In Christ, Paul S
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xyz said:Wes said:
John was reluctant to baptize Jesus because he recognized that Jesus was the person who had no need for repentance. He recognized that Jesus was a person who had no need for repentance. He testified that he did not know who Jesus was until the sign given at the baptism. Those baptized by John needed Christian baptism as well (Acts 19:5). The text does not say so, but even if it was necessary then, it does not mean that it would always be so. There is no general command for water baptism anywhere in Scripture. Christian baptism is a sign of initiation pointing to a relatonship with the Christ who has come That is not in Scripture. Scripture says that, to be saved, one must believe and witness to one's belief with one's mouth. That witness can be at water baptism, but witness must be a continuing fruit of the Spirit until death or Christ's return. In view of the fact that water baptism became to great extent the next circumcision, a work vainly put towards justification, the saints may decide to omit this now empty ritual. John's riposte to the Pharisees and Sadducees lost no relevance for other pretenders in the post-apostolic period and beyond. In His role as Messiah, "born under the law" (Gal.4:4), Jesus had to submit to all God's requirements for Israel Water baptism is nowhere entailed under Mosaic Law. Had it been, John would not have turned away, not just Jesus, but teachers of the Law! I'm going to be very frank with you. I have answered every one of your objections in the previous passage I've quoted and the Scripture references listed in the comments following it. Your ideas are not consistant with what the Bible teaches. May I suggests you reread the Scripture in my previous reply and the reference texts noted in the commentary. If you still have doubts why don't you supply the texts that support your presupposition. Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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xyz said: The first of these is a general command, but does not mention water; Then pray tell, what was the medium to be used by the disciples to baptize those who came to faith since they were incapable of baptizing them with the Holy Spirit; a sovereign act of God? What cannot be avoided is that the Lord Christ commanded them to baptize. xyz then said: the next two are not general commands; The second one is indisputably a command. But you evidently don't see the preaching of Peter to be paradigmatic? Thus neither the content of his message (repent and believe upon Christ) and then to be "baptized for the remission of sins" is to be done today? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> lastly xyz said: the last is not command. The fact that Paul baptized so remarkably few is indication of his own view of its importance. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT . . . how that idea is so easily dismissed by many today. The text makes clear that ALL the saints he was addressing were, in fact, baptized albeit by others and not Paul himself with the exceptions mentioned. The point he was addressing was the tendency of some to follow after a man (idolatry) and not after Christ alone. He had no desire to have his own followers; "lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name." For, one is baptized "unto Christ", thus signifying that they are followers of Him. In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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xyz, Several times you have gone out of your way to point out that John was not looking for a single, that is unique, person not requiring repentance: In response to Wes saying:John was reluctant to baptize Jesus because he recognized that Jesus was the person who had no need for repentance. you replied:He recognized that Jesus was a person who had no need for repentance. In response to my asking:Are you saying ... John went beyond his office in commanding his hearers to be baptised? you replied: Only when he thought they needed to repent, and intended to repent. In response to my saying:apart from the single unique case of Jesus Christ you replied:How is it known that this case was unique? I have no clear idea what is motivating you to not believe that John was expecting one, and one only, person to arise would be found not in need of repentance, but the Scriptures very cleary testify against you that he was: For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord*; make his* paths straight.'" :: "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he* who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose* sandals I am not worthy to carry. He* will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His* winnowing fork is in his hand, and he* will clear his* threshing floor and gather his* wheat into the barn, but the chaff he* will burn with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:3,11-12 ESV)
* the Lord/he/his/whose--all referring to a singular, ie unique, person (I know you are sensitive to the usage of pronouns and the like) **************************** As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
"Behold, I send my messenger before your* face, who will prepare your* way, the voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord*, make his* paths straight,'" :: And he preached, saying, "After me comes he* who is mightier than I, the strap of whose* sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water, but he* will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (Mark 1:2-3,7-8 ESV)
* your/ the Lord/ his/he--all referring to a singular, ie unique, person **************************** And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord* to prepare his* ways :: John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he* who is* mightier than I is* coming, the strap of whose* sandals I am not worthy to untie. He* will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His* winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his* threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his* barn, but the chaff he* will burn with unquenchable fire." (Luke 1:76, 3:16-17, ESV)
* the Lord/ his/he/is/whose--all referring to a singular, ie unique, person ******************************** He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light*, that all might believe through him*. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light*. :: ( John bore witness about him*, and cried out, "This* was* he* of whom* I said, 'He* who comes after me ranks* before me, because he* was* before me.'") :: He said, "I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,'* as the prophet Isaiah said." :: John answered them, "I baptize with water, but among you stands* one* you do not know, even he* who comes* after me, the strap of whose* sandal I am not worthy to untie." :: The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God*, who* takes* away the sin of the world! This is he* of whom* I said, 'After me comes a man* who ranks* before me, because he* was* before me.' I myself did not know him*, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he* might be revealed to Israel." And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him*. I myself did not know him*, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He* on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this* is* he* who* baptizes* with the Holy Spirit.' And I have seen and have borne witness that this* is* the Son of God*." The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"* (John 1:7-8,15,23,26-27,29-36 ESV)
* the light/him/this/was/he/whom/ranks/the Lord/stands/one/comes/whose/the Lamb of God/who/ takes/a man/is/baptizes/the Son of God--all referring to a singular, ie unique, person
In Christ, Paul S
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Pilgrim said:xyz said: The first of these is a general command, but does not mention water; Then pray tell, what was the medium to be used by the disciples to baptize those who came to faith since they were incapable of baptizing them with the Holy Spirit The word matheeteúsate means 'make disciples by teaching'. That is how rabbis made disciples for themselves, but here conversion was to be on behalf of, in the name of, the deity, Father, Son and Spirit, no less. It is gospel teaching that baptizes 'with fire', i.e. spiritually, not by physical means. The context is one of authority, Jesus having been given 'all power in heaven and on earth'. xyz then said: the next two are not general commands; The second one is indisputably a command. But you evidently don't see the preaching of Peter to be paradigmatic? Thus neither the content of his message (repent and believe upon Christ) and then to be "baptized for the remission of sins" is to be done today? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> By being baptized in water, the converts were 'pinning their colors to the mast', making open declaration of allegiance to their Master. Today, water baptizm signifies very little- but public personal oral testimony of what Jesus has done for individuals does signify, though. That is used by some as the practical indication of conversion before men (along with personal fruits)- while not prohibiting water baptizm, the practise of which is a personal decision. lastly xyz said: the last is not command. The fact that Paul baptized so remarkably few is indication of his own view of its importance. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT . . . how that idea is so easily dismissed by many today. The text makes clear that ALL the saints he was addressing were, in fact, baptized albeit by others and not Paul himself with the exceptions mentioned. The point he was addressing was the tendency of some to follow after a man (idolatry) and not after Christ alone. That is his main point, agreed, but in reinforcing it, he indicates that water baptizm, even though likely to be commonly practised, is not a principle concern of his. Paul became 'father' to the Corinthians through the gospel, i.e. he 'baptized' them in the Holy Spirit, yet he baptized only a few of them in water.
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xyz said:
The word matheeteúsate means 'make disciples by teaching'. That is how rabbis made disciples for themselves, but here conversion was to be on behalf of, in the name of, the deity, Father, Son and Spirit, no less. It is gospel teaching that baptizes 'with fire', i.e. spiritually, not by physical means. The context is one of authority, Jesus having been given 'all power in heaven and on earth'. The dispute is not over "disciples" but over "baptize". I know of no "gospel teaching that baptizes 'with fire'" but rather the biblical Gospel that calls men to repentance and faith and then to be baptized in water. To deny that this was the COMMON practice during the entire period of the apostles would be more than ignorant, for there are myriad examples of believers (and their households) being baptized in water. Sorry, but I am not going to spend time providing links to the dozens of places where these appear. xyz then said: By being baptized in water, the converts were 'pinning their colors to the mast', making open declaration of allegiance to their Master. Today, water baptizm signifies very little- but public personal oral testimony of what Jesus has done for individuals does signify, though. That is used by some as the practical indication of conversion before men (along with personal fruits)- while not prohibiting water baptizm, the practise of which is a personal decision. Again, your view flies in the face of explicit biblical passages which teach otherwise. A good summary with biblical evidence can be seen in:
Westminster Larger Catechism
Q165: What is Baptism? A165: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,[1] to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself,[2] of remission of sins by his blood,[3] and regeneration by his Spirit;[4] of adoption,[5] and resurrection unto everlasting life;[6] and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church,[7] and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's.[8]
1. Matt. 28:19 2. Gal. 3:27 3. Mark 1:4; Rev. 1:5 4. Titus 3:5; Eph. 5:26 5. Gal. 3:26-27 6. I Cor. 15:29; Rom. 6:5 7. I Cor. 12:13 8. Rom. 6:4
lastly xyz said: That is his main point, agreed, but in reinforcing it, he indicates that water baptizm, even though likely to be commonly practised, is not a principle concern of his. Paul became 'father' to the Corinthians through the gospel, i.e. he 'baptized' them in the Holy Spirit, yet he baptized only a few of them in water. That was Paul's personal choice in order to avoid an inordinate following. If such a risk was not present he would have baptized no less than the other apostles and appointed elders in all the churches he found. However, he chose to let the other leaders in the local assemblies do the baptizing while he focused on missionary endeavors to bring the Gospel message to those who hadn't heard it. The letter was written to an established church not as a directive but as a rebuke to those who were sectarian and given to following an individual rather than Christ. There is no indication whatsoever that Paul held a lesser view of baptism than anyone else. Nowhere does he disparage baptism! In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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If a man thinks of himself as a leader and no one is following then he is just taking a walk.
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True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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xyz
As I read what you have to say concerning this subject, I am at a loss to understand where you are coming from in this matter. Besides the very words of Scripture, I have read quite a few theologians both Credo-Baptist and Paedo-Baptist. To the one I have yet to read any that espouse your view. About the only denomination that does not emphasize baptism that I know of, is the Salvation Army, but I am not certain they would agree with you either. Would you mind telling us what denomination you belong to, so at least we could understand where you are coming from?
Tom
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