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Lieing, Delusional, or Telling the Truth #39343
Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:45 PM
Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,454
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Having been a former Charismatic, over the years I have met fellow Charismatics that it would seem are very sincere and devoted Christians.
Some of these people claim that God has given them visions, been used by God to perform miraculous healings, etc...

As someone who is more interested in what the Bible says, rather than experience, I have to believe that these occurances were not of God, if they occured at all.

However, that does bring up a few questions in my mind, as to what these people claim to have happened.
Are these people lieing, delusional, or actually telling the truth, which would mean that either these things came from Satan, or my understanding of Scripture is wrong and theirs is correct.

I am interested in finding out your thoughts on the matter.

Tom

Re: Lieing, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Tom] #39344
Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:22 AM
Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:22 AM
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Robin Offline
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Robin  Offline
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In my case the events were interpreted according to my charismatic presuppositions. If I babbled away for awhile in gibberish, well, then it "must have been" the gift of tongues! If I experienced an eerie feeling during a time of spiritual warfare, then it "must have been" the gift of discerning spirits. If God healed a sick person, then it "must have been" because the person who prayed over him has the gift of healing.

Even Sigmund Freud - known for "interpreting" dreams and building a whole world around the possible meaning of dream imagery - once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Babbling in gibberish is just babbling. Feelings are just feelings. A sovereign act of God is just that. But as charismatics we were taught to always put meaning to ordinary events. It amounted, in my case, to little more than wishful thinking.

Re: Lieing, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Robin] #39345
Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:27 PM
Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:27 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
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Tom  Offline OP
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Your case seems quite similar to mine.
Did you experience anything (healing etc...)that you can not even to this day explain with your new understanding of Scripture?
In my case, although I heard many cases of supposed miracles. I never actually experienced anything concrete. Though I will say that things like speaking in tongues made me feel very close to God and it was easy to stay focused on heavenly things as opposed to the cares of this world.

Tom

Re: Lieing, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Tom] #39346
Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:48 AM
Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:48 AM
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
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There were lots of times that I "felt" really close to God, and I became addicted to that feeling. We found that manipulating emotion was a vital part of charismatic worship. We called our work "ushering the people into the Throne Room," but what we were really doing was manipulating the flesh as in order to acheive a spiritual result. "Conjuring up" the Holy Spirit, you might say, and always with an expectation of some "manifestation" of His presence - so whatever happened in the service was attributed to Him.

Yet He is so gracious. Our ignorance and witchcraft (and that's exactly the right word to describe the manipulation we practiced) did not prevent His Spirit from reaching and liberating the lost, nor from enlightening them from His word, nor from healing the sick and answering prayer.

I have seen one genuinely instantaneous healing. But it wasn't in a heated, intense church meeting nor revival tent nor was the 700 Club playing on TV. It was just me and one other person, an ordinary prayer and an "ordinary" answer, with extraordinary speed. No drama, no hype, no conjuring. Just a humble request and God's response.

But nothing I can't explain from Scripture - but there are so many things I can't explain from His word, like why He should care for such a corrupt, twisted creature as I; nor why He chose me for redemption.

Re: Lying, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Robin] #39347
Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:42 AM
Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:42 AM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Robin,

There is indeed a cosmic difference between "Divine healing" and "Miraculous Healing", that being the former is done according to a fallacious belief that ALL disease, infirmity, ailment, etc., is contrary to the will of God and thus it is allegedly God's will that ALL be healed, with the caveat that the healing will only happen IF the "victim" has enough faith. The latter is biblical in that God can and does heal those who are sick according to His will (1Jh 5:14).

A simple proof that the former is totally false is the fact that ALL men die. It is God's will that some saints will have to endure agonizing pain, sickness, disease, etc. to show forth the efficacy and sufficiency of Christ Who suffered ALL the effects of sin in Himself that we may be reconciled to God, experience the tremendous and infinite grace of God even in this life and to finally receive a total healing of both spirit and body in the age to come.

One of the best treatises on healing, exposing the false and upholding the true biblical teaching on the subject can be found here: Miraculous Healing, by Henry Frost.

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Lying, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Pilgrim] #41528
Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:50 PM
Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:50 PM
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Nick Mudge Offline
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Peterborough, UK
I fully agree with your distinctions and caveats to God healing in this day and age. However do we readily pray for the sick? Hyper calvinism stunts the preaching of the gospel in a way that shouldn't happen. Does our sovereignty perspective in the area of healing lead us to a form of hyper calvinism in this area??


Nick Mudge


Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Re: Lying, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Nick Mudge] #41530
Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:22 PM
Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,435
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Joined: Apr 2001
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NH, USA
Originally Posted by Nick Mudge
However do we readily pray for the sick? Hyper calvinism stunts the preaching of the gospel in a way that shouldn't happen. Does our sovereignty perspective in the area of healing lead us to a form of hyper calvinism in this area??

1. I surely hope we pray for the sick. There is no restriction on praying for the sick as far as I know. wink

2. To hold to the biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty should produce a fervent desire to pray for the healing of one who is sick. Who else but God Almighty, our dear heavenly Father through His Spirit has the power to heal? The LORD God works through means, however, to bring about healing, comfort, etc. Praying over your injured child and waiting for God to heal him is akin to wishing someone warmth but not giving them a blanket and/or a heated place to stay.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Lying, Delusional, or Telling the Truth [Re: Tom] #51309
Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:40 AM
Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:40 AM
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Posts: 1
OK
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Thomas Bruce Offline
Plebeian
Thomas Bruce  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2015
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OK
Dear Tom,
In the case of visions I believe that would be a delusion. Here's my text: "Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy (NASB, HCS, NIV)... after 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off...(Dan. 9:24-6)." There is no article, neither “this” nor “the” before the word "vision" or the word "prophesy." It does not refer to any particular prophet, prophesy, or vision. It is comprehensive and general. Literally (in Hebrew) it says “prophets” are sealed, so not merely prophesy; but the calling of prophets is sealed. When something is sealed it is because it is completed or finished. So sealed in the sense of stopped. If prophesy has not stopped then the atonement is not complete. If atonement for sins is complete then so is prophesy. If the sin problem has been completely dealt with once and for all then prophesy and visions are also finished. The time of fulfillment comes out in the first century around the time that the book of Revelation was received by the Church. Without prophets there can be no prophesy or vision, so inspired speech or revelation ended in the first-century. That there will be two prophets at the time of the end (Rev. 11:3) does not contradict this since they may be symbolic referring to the Old and New Testaments. Joel chapter two presents no problem either since both sons and daughters prophesied during the apostolic age. After 400 years of silence during the period between the Old and New Testaments, the floodgates were opened again in the first century, then ceased towards the end of the first century just as predicted. Scripture indicates that alleged verbal messages from God may come from mental delusions (Jer. 23:16, 25-26) or from one's own spirit (Ez. 13:3-10) or from the devil (2 Cor. 11:14) or possibly from an over sensitive conscience (Rom. 14:1-2, 5, 14; 1 Cor. 8:4-8, 10:23-31). Of course medical and emotional issues may also be present. The bottom line is that folks today who are claiming to hear the voice of God apart from Scripture are guided by their own thoughts as opposed to the Holy Spirit. They simply reproduce the thoughts and emotions natural to their own minds. What they hear belongs to the sphere of worldly interests and human speculation their own desires and hopes.


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