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Web info exposing "Christian Leaders"? #410
Fri Mar 29, 2002 12:12 PM
Fri Mar 29, 2002 12:12 PM

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Where can I find web sites exposing/investigating "christian leaders" like Bill Bright, Beth Moore, Gary Smalley, Billy Grahmn, etc.

I so far know of these two:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/

http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists.html

Question? #411
Fri Mar 29, 2002 8:40 PM
Fri Mar 29, 2002 8:40 PM

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Why would you be interested in a website (Biblical Discernment Ministries) that frowns upon John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul Sr.?

Just curious.

some guy

Re: Question? #412
Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:31 PM
Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:31 PM

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One thing I've noticed about "discernment" sites: everyone is wrong but themselves. It is something like Campingitis [Linked Image]

Re: Question? #413
Sat Mar 30, 2002 10:24 AM
Sat Mar 30, 2002 10:24 AM
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Some Guy

You are correct about that site, they even are critical with other Reformed teachers like Michael Horton an James Montgomery Boice. Just to name a few.

Tom

Re: Question? #414
Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:42 AM
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Because I'm interested in these sorts of things. Do you know of any?

Re: Question? [Re: Tom] #415
Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:58 AM
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Here are two direct quotes from Michael Horton:

"The contributors to Power Religion would be quick to note that these disciplines [sociology, psychology, and politics] are not in themselves evil or unnecessary ... None of the authors suggests that those who support Christian political activism, the signs and wonders movement, the church growth movement, the therapeutic movement, or sensational or potentially authoritarian schemes, are non-Christians or enemies of the faith masquerading as disciples of Christ ... [That is a large part of the problem today -- the acceptance of everyone as genuine Christians, regardless of their doctrinal fruit.] In fact, none of us suggests that there is nothing to learn from these various movements. Speaking for myself, I know that my own Christian faith and life would be the poorer without interaction with some of my close friends who are charismatic, for instance. Likewise, I have admired the zeal of some church growth leaders ... miracles, philosophy, corporate and psychological insights, and political positions may well be part of the life of any Christian, [although] they are weak substitutes for the gospel" (Jacket & pp. 14-15, 333.)

"... while we oppose the 'end-run' around the cross that psychology often performs when it assures non-believers that God is on good terms with them, we do not condemn psychology itself, only its attempt to usurp the place of God. Psychology is a very helpful and necessary tool when used wisely"

Re: Question? #416
Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:59 AM
Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:59 AM

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Yes, but do you know of any websites that offer this "discernment" information? I'm interested in seeing what they have to say.

Re: Question? #417
Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:00 PM
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What was your point/s for quoting Michael Horton?<br><br>Tom

Re: Question? [Re: Tom] #418
Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:34 PM
Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:34 PM

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Psychology

Science or Religion?

What William Law wrote two centuries ago is even more evident today: "Man needs to be saved from his own wisdom as much as from his own righteousness, for they produce one and the same corruption."

It is paradoxical that at a time when secular psychological researchers are demonstrating less confidence in psychological counseling, more and more professing Christians are pursuing it. "Christian" counseling centers are springing up all over the nation offering what many believe is the perfect combination: Christianity plus psychology. Furthermore, Christians who are not even in the counseling ministry look to psychologists for advice on how to live, how to relate to others, and how to meet the challenges of life.

In their attempts to be relevant, many preachers, teachers, counselors, and writers promote a psychological perspective of life rather than a Biblical one. The symbol of psychology overshadows the cross of Christ, and psychological jargon contaminates the Word of God.

Psychology is a subtle and widespread leaven in the Church. It has permeated the entire loaf and is stealthily starving the sheep. It promises far more than it can deliver and what it does deliver is not the food that nourishes. Yet multitudes of professing Christians view psychology with respect and awe.

Now, when we speak of psychology as leaven we are not referring to the entire field of psychological study, such as valid research. Our concern is primarily with those areas that deal with the nature of man, how he should live, and how he can change. These involve some values, attitudes, and behavior that are diametrically opposed to God's Word. We will see, therefore, that psychoanalysis and psychotherapy have no compatibility with the Christian faith.

Quoted from this web page: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/psych.htm

Re: Question? #419
Thu Apr 04, 2002 4:28 PM
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Unknown

While I understand your concern about psychology, if you have read and listened to Dr. Michael Horton, you would probably realize that he believes that the Bible is the ultimate counseling book.
When Dr. Horton says "... while we oppose the 'end-run' around the cross that psychology often performs when it assures non-believers that God is on good terms with them, we do not condemn psychology itself, only its attempt to usurp the place of God. Psychology is a very helpful and necessary tool when used wisely"
He is not saying that all psychology is helpful, he is saying that it is helpful when used wisely.
The key word here is "wisely".
The word psychology is not a bad word in itself. Just like the word theology is not wrong. Unbiblical psychology is wrong; psychology that is biblically based is helpful.<br>Wrong theology, such as Arminian theology is heretical, but Calvinist theology, is biblical.

Proverbs 11:14 says "Where no council is, the people fall: but in the multitude of councillors there is safety."

I have met a lot of Christians over the years, who although they definitely are believers, they still have mental scars from past and present circumstances.
Being a Christian does not make one immune to this. However, it can help when someone comes along side that person and councils that person. It doesn't have to be a professional. But that councilor/s should know what is good and what is bad advice.

Perhaps you are unconvinced concerning Dr. Michael Horton; if that is the case it would be best to contact him yourself. At least that way you would know one way or another.

Tom

Re: Question? [Re: Tom] #420
Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:54 PM
Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:54 PM

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Tom: "Unbiblical psychology is wrong; psychology that is biblically based is helpful."



IS THERE A CHRISTIAN PSYCHOLOGY?

The Christian Association for Psychological Studies (CAPS) is a group of psychologists and psychological counselors who are professing Christians. At one of their meetings the following was stated:

"We are often asked if we are "Christian Psychologists" and find it difficult to answer since we don't know what the question implies. We are Christians who are psychologists but at the present time there is no acceptable Christian psychology that is markedly different from non-Christian psychology. It is difficult to imply that we function in a manner that is fundamentally distinct from our non-Christian colleagues ... as yet there is not an acceptable theory, mode of research or treatment methodology that is distinctly Christian" (6/76 CAPS Western Assoc. meeting).

In spite of the hodge-podge of unscientific opinions and contradictions, "Christian psychologists" proclaim, "All truth is God's truth." They use this statement to support their use of psychology, but they are not clear about what "God's truth is." Is God's truth Freudian pronouncements of obsessive neurosis? Or is it Jung's structure of archetypes? Or is God's truth the behaviorism of B. F. Skinner? Or is God's truth "I'm OK; You're OK"?

Psychology, like all religions, includes elements of truth. Even Satan's temptation of Eve included both truth and lie. The enticement of the "All truth is God's truth" fallacy is that there is some similarity between Biblical teachings and psychological ideas. However, similarities do not make psychology compatible with Christianity any more than the similarities between Christianity and other religious systems of belief. Even the writings of the Hindu, Buddhist, and Moslem religions contain statements about attitudes and behavior which may be similar to some Bible verses.

The similarities between psychology and Christianity merely indicate that the systems of psychological counseling are indeed religious. Christians should no more turn to psychologists than to leaders of non-Christian religions to find wisdom and help with problems of living.

Since there exists no standardized "Christian" psychology, each so-called Christian psychologist decides for himself which of the many psychological opinions and methods constitute his ideas of "God's truth." In so doing, the subjective observations and biased opinions of mere mortals are placed on the same level as the inspired Word of God.

Quoted from this web page: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/psych.htm

Re: Question? #421
Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:46 PM
Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:46 PM
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Unknown<br><br>Although there is truth in what your quote says.<br>It begs the question, when someone goes to their pastor for counseling and the pastor tries to help that person to get through their mental anguish, are they wrong in doing so?<br><br>I am not suggesting that a pastor or a councilor use worldly means to help that person. In fact they shouldn't, but if what you are saying is correct, then the hurting believer is left to their own devises, which sometimes can lead to dire consequences.<br><br>Years ago I took a counseling course put on by the church I was attending. What I remember most in that course, is that over 90% of good counseling is just being a good listening ear. When someone is actually listening to what a person is saying, then chances are they will not spout off with something that will not help the person.<br><br>Tell me, what is wrong with that? <br><br>I can tell you from personal experience from having grown up in an alcoholic family. That I suffered greatly, and it was the Lord that helped me get over all the mental anguish. But it is equally true that God used Christian people to get me through that. <br><br>Tom<br>

Something more to add [Re: Tom] #422
Fri Apr 05, 2002 5:03 PM
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Unknown<br><br>One thing I have found in my Christian experience is that there is not one Christian who has everything right, when it comes to theology or other matters.<br>Even if it can be proved that Dr. Michael Horton is wrong on this particular issue. It does not destroy his ministry all together.<br>In fact, in my opinion, Dr. Michael Horton is one of the better ones out there.<br>Just like when any person says something, we shouldn't take it as gospel. Knowing that they are fallible human beings, Dr. Michael Horton is no different.<br><br>It is quite clear you take what some might call extreme views on many issues. In fact you have probably noticed that most people on this forum disagree with you on many issues.<br>Are you willing to label all the people that disagree with you on the issues, in the same way you would Dr. Michael Horton?<br><br>Tom<br>

Re: Question? #423
Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:06 PM
Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:06 PM
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Unknown,

Although much of what you say about Psychology is frightfully true, there is, or at least was, a truly biblical based "psychology" (the study of the soul) being taught. Dr. Jay Adams began this back in the mid '70s. It is called "Nouthetic Counseling". He rejects modern psychologists getting involved in counseling and absolutely denied any place for psychiatrists in counseling. However, he does believe, and I agree, that both psychology and psychiatry have their place; research and discovering organic causes for certain behavioral problems, respectively.

He also believed that the term "mental illness" is greatly misused when describing problems which are non-organic in origin.

Are you familiar with this study?


In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Biblical Counseling #424
Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:00 PM
Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:00 PM

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Unknown,<br>I wanted to add this. There is the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation on this site. http://www.ccef.org They publish the Journal of Biblical Counseling. I ordered a couple sample copies and thought it was good. Perhaps someone else knows more about them. To give you an idea of this magazine, one of the issues I got from Spring 2,000 had an article from a sermon by Charles Spurgeon called The Valley of the Shadow of Death on depression. The other issue had a book review on Martyn Lloyd-Jone's wonderful book Spiritual Depression. It states in the inside cover that their mission is to "develop the church's wisdom in 'speaking the truth in love' "<br>In the book review section they reviewed The Freedom from Depression Workbook by Les Carter and Frank Minirth and after finding some good qualities in it about their ability to define depression accurately, they have this to say about it,<br>"The authors' weakness is that they present their information in such a way that repentance and dependence on Christ are not necessary for change to occur. They emphasize the importance of cognition and the ability to change one's thinking (and therefore, behavior) in successfully overcoming depression. Choices are evaluated as being "unhealthy" rather than sinful. People are encouraged to make "better choices", and are told they have the ability to discern "healthy traits"..."<br>This separates their thinking from the other "Christian Counseling" we have heard about. This is the medicine that really works based on God's Word. Yes, there is much harm in false teachings in this area.<br>Susan<br>SWW

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