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Re: Tribulation views [Re: Pilgrim] #40847
Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:37 PM
Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:37 PM
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gnarley Offline
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And Jesus said all of that would take place in the generation to whom he was speaking


gil
Re: Tribulation views [Re: gnarley] #40848
Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:12 PM
Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:12 PM
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gnarley said:
And Jesus said all of that would take place in the generation to whom he was speaking

Gil,

A more than reasonable exegesis of Matthew 24:34 in regard to "this generation":


Matthew 24:34 (ASV) "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished."


can be found here: A Defense of Reformed Amillennialism (Part V), by David Engelsma and the following installments on Matthew 24.

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Tribulation views [Re: John_C] #40849
Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:23 AM
Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:23 AM
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Peter Offline
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John_C said:
I am not defining tribulation here. Whatever the people who ascribe to the tribulation views is what I am going with. As Pilgrim pointed out, only premills talk of tribulation as is meant in the various tribulation views. Apparently, posttribulation and historic premillennialism are basically the same.

Personally, I see tribulation for believers occurring from the 1st century to the Second Coming. Though, I can see that this tribulation will be more intense toward the end.


I meant to reply to this but things happened in the mean time.

John by your statement there whether you meant to or not you've defined what you mean by tribulation. Whe I speak to most Christians not of the Reformed view tribulation means what happens to the Jews during the first 3 1/2 years under the Antichrist. They don't associate it with what is currently going on to Christians in foreign lands now. I consider the tribulation as what is happening right now to the church and something that happened in particular to the unbelieving jews that were killed when Titus destroyed the temple. To what happened to the jews I would say that it is the Great Tribulation prophesied by Christ.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Tribulation views [Re: Peter] #40850
Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:39 AM
Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:39 AM
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Boanerges said:
To what happened to the jews I would say that it is the Great Tribulation prophesied by Christ.

Well, I have always had a problem with the premillennial silliness of a "pre-trib, mid-trib" rapture. Likewise, I find it incredulous of the posties to suggest the majority of events as found in Matthew 24/Mark 13 were fulfilled in AD 70 (ala: pretorism). Take for example, Mark's perspective and it should be obvious that the "Great Tribulation" simply cannot be assigned to a past event, i.e., AD 70, but rather it must have been and is a future event which is going to occur just before the physical return of Christ.


Mark 13:19-27 (KJV) "For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."


IF you have a reasonable explanation based upon a sound exegesis of this passage, could you please share it?

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Tribulation views [Re: Pilgrim] #40851
Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:48 AM
Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:48 AM
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Western Oregon
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I would probably be classed as an a-mil, preteristic historicist. God's "coming" in judgement and "Returning" seem to not necessarily be the same. God came in the judgment, and other manifestations on numerous occassions. Jesus was talking to His generation living at that time, and I am afraid that too often, we like the Jews fail to appreciate the extent of evil that Israel had accomplished in refusing to see the fulfillment of the many prophesies regarding the coming of their Messiah. I believe the judgement Jesus was referring to was fulfilled in 70 AD. It all fits to me anyway. There will be a final judgement of course, which still lays in our future. The persecution that Christians have experienced and are now experiencing in some parts of the world is beyond the imagination of most of us living in what was once called Christendom, but is now so far removed from what our ancestors believed that it is a word that has totally lost its meaning;
Just one old guy's conclusion. Glad this is up & running again


gil
Re: Tribulation views [Re: Pilgrim] #41028
Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:39 AM
Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:39 AM
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PeoplesRepublikofOregon
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Jesus told members of the Council that some of them would see this, very few of them survive to this day so thats a problem.

I reckon its easier to place these event in the first century than to explain the abject failure of thousands of years of ministry on part of the Holy Spirit.


Marxism is the opiate of the academy.
Re: Tribulation views [Re: Pilgrim] #41094
Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:28 AM
Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:28 AM
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Just so you know I haven't forgotten about this.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
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