The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Please Help Me Understand

Hi Joe,<br><br>You wrote: “Well your statement has some truth in it. Everyone is hopelessly lost until certain ones are enabled by God’s grace to believe. But, after they are saved they are full of hope for they know of know greater thing that could have transpired in their lives. It is good that you acknowledge, there’s absolutely nothing that I can do to save myself. May I ask, how you came to this conclusion?”<br><br>The only way that anyone comes to the conclusion that they cannot save themselves, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit! <br><br>You wrote: “We have already discussed your term “torture,” thus I will not entertain it here. Here though you also have blamed God for man’s own sin. You are attempting to make God out the bad guy, but again, God is just in His punishment. It is His universe. He makes the rules. A judge who hands out a death penalty to a murderer is not considered unjust. The murderer is receiving his just reward for he has taken another human being life. God is just as He would never hand out a punishment that was not warranted and just.” <br><br>I’m sorry but I don’t see where I “have blamed God for man’s own sin,” actually I don’t blame God for anything, that’s the whole point. You seem to believe that God is going to torment the vast majority of humanity for ever and ever. I can’t accept that.<br><br>You might want to do a word study on the word torment, you might just find that “torture” fits, but, regardless, I have no problem with using the word torment instead. I began this thread with quotes from Christian preachers descriptions of eternal torment. <br><br>Since God is omnipresent, do you believe that God is in hell? Overseeing the torment of countless millions? Will He oversee this torment for ever? Is this your view of God Almighty?<br><br>You wrote: “Here you have made the assumption that man stops sinning after he enters hell, but that would mean that some how he became glorified aside from God’s redemptive act. Unregenerate man keeps sinning, even in hell, and thus hell is for eternity—which is just since he keeps on sinning.”<br><br>I don’t quite understand you here, do you believe that there is some kind of social structure in hell? Sin being the transgression of the law, do you believe that there are laws to be broken in hell?<br>

Hi Joe,<br><br>I have no idea why God would save me, I'm totally worthless! I can do nothing, absolutely nothing to save myself, without Jesus Christ I'm totally and completely lost, without hope and with no reason to live.<br><br>Jesus Christ is the only reason that I want to live, I see no purpose in living without Him. For forty years I have tried to follow Him, and I have failed in each and every attempt, yet I know that He loves me, else I could nof love Him so.<br><br>It is nearly unbearable for me to hear people say that He is going to torment people forever. I can't hardly stand it! Can't you understand that?<br><br>

Pilgrim,<br><br>You wrote: “You have continued to equate justice with evil because you have maintained that the punishment promised to the wicked is "torture"…”<br><br>Punishment, Kolasis, is about disciplinary punishment with reference to correcting the one being disciplined. That’s not what I’m talking about. I have no problem using torment instead of torture even though I don’t see much difference between the two.<br><br>You wrote: “I'm also curious as to who these "teachers of Christianity" are that you mentioned a few times? You obviously accept them as being paradigmatic of all who profess to be Christian teachers and their teaching is representative of all who profess to be Christians. I would certainly accept Jonathan Edwards' teaching on hell to be biblical sound, if that is of any help to you?”<br><br>You must not have read my first post, I quoted several different Christian leaders, even Jonathan Edwards, who you say that you agree with. Jonathan Edward even uses the word “torture” in his description of hell:<br><br>“Do but consider what it is to suffer extreme torment forever and ever to suffer it day and night, from one day to another, from one year to another, from one age to another, from one thousand ages to another, and so, adding age to age, and thousands to thousands, in pain, in wailing and lamenting, groaning and shrieking, and gnashing your teeth; with your souls full of dreadful grief and amazement, with your bodies and every member full of <b>racking torture,</b> without any possibility of getting ease; without any possibility of moving God to pity by your cries; without any possibility of hiding yourselves from him; without any possibility of diverting your thoughts from your pain; without any possibility of obtaining any manner of mitigation, or help, or change for the better any way.”<br><br>Quoted form Jonathan Edward “The Eternity of Hell Torments”<br><br>Here’s another quote from Jonathan Edward, and the pain and suffering that you and he believes that the god you worship will inflict upon human beings forever and ever:<br><br>“But to help your conception, imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven, or of a great furnace, where your pain would be as much greater than that occasioned by accidentally touching a coal of fire, as the heat is greater. Imagine also that your body were to lie there for a quarter of an hour, all the while full of quick sense; what horror would you feel at the entrance of such a furnace! And how long would that quarter of an hour seem to you! And after you had endured it for one minute, how overbearing would it be to you to think that you had it to endure the other fourteen!<br>But what would be the effect on your soul, if you knew you must lie there enduring that torment to the full for<br>twenty-four hours! And how much greater would be the effect, if you knew you must endure it for a whole year;<br>and how vastly greater still, if you knew you must endure it for a thousand years! O then, how would your heart<br>sink, if you thought, if you knew, that you must bear it forever and ever! That there would be no end! That after<br>millions of millions of ages, your torment would be no nearer to an end, than ever it was; and that you never, never should be delivered!”<br><br>You wrote: “Have you read anything that I have written to you? The sins committed by man against GOD are infinite in scope and thus deserve infinite punishment.”<br><br>I certainly read what you said about infinite sins but you also said that Jesus Christ took the penalty for infinite sin and paid a finite price, 3 days. Now, if the penalty for sin is everlasting torment how could it ever be paid?<br><br>You tell me that Jesus Christ paid the full penalty for sin in 3 days while the penalty, according to you, is everlasting torment. You can’t have it both ways!<br><br>As for my beliefs, they are closer to Reformed than anything else. I simply cannot put evil on God, eternal torment is evil, therefore I cannot accept that God is going to torment people forever and ever.<br><br>You wrote: “We do agree on one thing..... you CANNOT (inability) and WILL NOT (refusal) worship the one true God Who has revealed Himself in Scripture because you hate Him with your whole being. You consider Him to be "evil" and a despicable being because He has promised and will render justice to all who are at enmity with Him. What is wrong is your understanding of what is "good", what is "evil", the magnitude of "depravity" of the human soul, the incomprehensibility of the "holiness" of God, etc.”<br><br>I really can’t hate God, I own Him way too much for that! And, I most certainly do not believe that God is evil, that’s the whole problem, you teach that He is going to torment people forever, that would be evil, you are the one proclaiming that God is evil, not me! <br><br>This whole ideal of yours that we cannot discern between good and evil is a very dangerous idea, the history of Christianity is full of men like you who believed that good and evil are subjective.<br><br>JER 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of<br>Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. <br><br>God said that it was an abomination to Him that they were passing children trough the fire! Yet, you would have me believe that He is going to do an even greater abomination. How can you accuse Him of such evil?<br>

Hi Joe,<br><br>I have no idea why God would save me, I'm totally worthless! I can do nothing, absolutely nothing to save myself, without Jesus Christ I'm totally and completely lost, without hope and with no reason to live.<br><br>Jesus Christ is the only reason that I want to live, I see no purpose in living without Him. For forty years I have tried to follow Him, and I have failed in each and every attempt, yet I know that He loves me, else I could nof love Him so.<br><br>It is nearly unbearable for me to hear people say that He is going to torment people forever. I can't hardly stand it! Can't you understand that?<br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I don't find any fault with the justice of God, but I do question, as I have stated, the torment that Christian preachers say God is going to inflict opon countless millions of human beings for ever and ever. Evil is evil, the torment that Christians teach God is going to inflict upon human beings, burning with fire forever, is evil. Can't you see that it is evil? Are you trying to turn evil, burning people alive forever, into good? You ask me what I would do if I ruled the world, assuming that I had the power I would heal the world of sin.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Where did you get these standards?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william<br>

JustLooking,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I don't find any fault with the justice of God, but I do question, as I have stated, the torment that Christian preachers say God is going to inflict opon countless millions of human beings for ever and ever. </font><hr></blockquote><p>So do I understand you to say that preachers are misrepresenting God's justice? <br><br>Jesus repeatedly warns of hell. For example, see Matt. 5:21-22, 27-30; 23:15, 33. To deny the existence of hell is therefore to reject the authority of Jesus. It would be strangely inconsistent to accept Jesus as Lord but reject an aspect of His teaching. Jesus laid down His life to save many from hell and bring them into the everlasting enjoyment of His glory. Those who turn to Him in repentance and faith will receive eternal life. Those who do not will receive their just reward.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]You ask me what I would do if I ruled the world, assuming that I had the power I would heal the world of sin.</font><hr></blockquote><p>How would you heal the world of sin? Sin results in death, so without being born again no healing is possible. Jesus came that we might have life in Him.<br><br><br>Wes<br>

According to your answer you appear to embrace an almost pantheistic view of God's omnipresence. Is this true? What are your beliefs concerning God's omnipresence?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I don’t quite understand you here, do you believe that there is some kind of social structure in hell? Sin being the transgression of the law, do you believe that there are laws to be broken in hell?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Very simply, when do men in Hell stop sinning? What IYO makes them stop? When will those in Hell stop hating God (which BTW is a sin)?

In reply to:

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[color:"blue"]This whole ideal of yours that we cannot discern between good and evil is a very dangerous idea, the history of Christianity is full of men like you who believed that good and evil are subjective.

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The fact is that I have maintained and challenged YOU to see good and evil in OBJECTIVE terms. God's nature and law (an expression of it) is the standard by which we are to determine what is right or wrong, good or evil, just or unjust. The issue is that you are determined to judge God and determine what is good and evil by your own standard; a subjective standard that flows from what YOU feel is just or unjust. The Scriptures, the divinely inspired, infallible and inerrant Word of God speaks volumes concerning the end of mankind. Some will be given to life a life of infinite blessing and live throughout eternity in perfect communion with God. All others will be judged and punished according to their hatred of God and transgression of all that his good and holy.

As for the Lord Christ only being in the tomb for 3 days, you should realize that His physical death is not equivalent to His spiritual death, i.e., separation from God and the enduring of the punishment put upon Him as the elect's substitute. He, being the GOD-man, endured the INFINITE wrath of God in a moment's time. What He must have had to endure is infinitely incomprehensible to one with a finite mind. But, rest assured, that unless Christ Jesus endured the FULL penalty for ALL the sins of those whom He came to die for, then no one is capable of reconcilation with God and remission of sins.

Please consider but some of the Bible's teaching concerning eternal punishment as shown below:

[color:blue]The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment

The Positive and Explicit Nature of Christ’s Teaching Concerning Eternal Punishment

Mt 25:31,” When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. . .41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Mark 9:43, “ And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

Luke 9:25, “ For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?”

Luke 16:22, “ And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

Mt 10:28, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Mt 13:41, “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (there is existence in the furnace of fire)

Luke 12:9, “But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.” (In the Greek here, it is “never” be forgiven)

Mt 23:16, “Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!” . . . v.33 “[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Mt 26:24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” (the threat would be empty, if annihilation was known to be the final destiny of men)

Luke 12:46, “The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.” (notice: portion w/unbelievers)

Mark 16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (believers will not be damned).

Mt 11:23, “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.” (emphasis is on the “land” and the fire that destroyed it, and yet it still existed, it was not annihilated)

Mt 13:49, “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Joh 8:21, “Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.”

Joh 5:28, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Rev 20:10, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” . . . v.14, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

Rev 21:8, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

[color:blue]Description of Christ’s Discharging the Office of Judge

Mt 3:12, “Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Mt 13:30, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” (wheat and tares both exist in the church now)

Mt 13:47, “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.”

Mt 25:10, “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.”

Mt 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mt 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

[color:blue]“Sheol” - A Place of Retribution
(notice the distinction between sin/sinners and righteousness/righteous)


Job 21:13, “They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. 14 Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.”

Ps 9:17, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.”

Prov 5:5, “Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.” (subject is the “strange woman” of v.3)

Prov 9:18, “But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell.”

Prov 23:14, “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.” (discipline can’t deliver the child from death)

Deut 32:22, “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 [They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs.”

Prov 15:24, “The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.”

Job 20:6, “Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; 7 [Yet] he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where [is] he? 8 He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.”

Prov 15:11, “Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?”

Prov 27:20, “Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.”
(in these last three verses above if hell is translated ‘Abbadon’ then it is the same as the Hebrew for Appolyon, cf. Rev 9:11)

All these are warnings of future evil and danger for the wicked only, otherwise the focus of the warnings is lost, especially if “hell “ is a common abode for both the righteous and the wicked. Compare: 2Thess 1:8, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

[color:blue]Judgement

Isa 33:14, “The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”

Isa 66:24, “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Dan 7:9, “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

Dan 12:2, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.” (raised from the dead to face eternal shame and contempt)

Deut 32:35, “To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.”

Ps 1:5, “Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

Ps 58:11, “So that a man shall say, Verily [there is] a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.”

Ps 90:11, “Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, [so is] thy wrath.”

Ps 94:1, “O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. 2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.”

Eccl 3:17, “I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work.”

Eccl 11:9, “Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these [things] God will bring thee into judgment.”

Eccl 12:14, “For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.”

Amos 8:7, “The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.”

2Cor 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.”

Acts 17:30, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

Rom 2:16, “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

In His Grace,

JL just answer a few questions here okay, just to clarify in our minds what exactly you believe. <br><br>1.) Do you believe that Jesus is the God-Man having two natures both divine and human neither of them separated nor co-mingled yet existing in one man?<br><br>2.) Do you believe that the Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience?<br><br>3.) Do believe that the Lord our God is this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit,[ of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided,[ the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence upon Him.<br><br>That should do for now. A simple yes or no will suffice but please be specific if its no then tell us what statement you don't believe to be true.

JustLooking:<br><br>First off, sorry for the delay (I usually only read at this board and so don't check back too often... kinda forgot [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush[/img] ). Anyway, in reply to my post that it is not evil when God justly punishes with eternal fire, you said:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]This is an incredible statement!</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>It is only incredible when one seeks answers via emotions and not by reason or, most importantly, Scripture.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is it evil to burn people alive or not? Apparently, according to you, it is only evil according to who does it?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Yes, the goodness or lack of goodness of an action is typically dependant on the person doing the action. For example, murder is always wrong, but killing is not always wrong. Murder is always wrong because it is wrong by definition (however, God cannot murder, by definition). God is never acting immorally in killing men/women, however humans may be evil in killing other men. Can we agree to that? Then what is evil for is not necessarily evil when God does it. One of the things we are not permitted, which God is permitted, is to punish with everlasting fire. That God punishes with such fire is a Scriptural committment, and not mine to defend. As it is written, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31). I can provide you with clear Biblical proofs that God punishes eternally, but whether you will hear is not for me to decide.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]During the inquisition, priests thought they were doing God’s will by torturing people, they thought that their evil was good because they were doing it in God’s name. Religions have done this throughout the ages.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>The problem is that you're still talking about people here. There is a vast difference between men performing torture in the name of God and God executing judgement. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is it evil to burn people alive forever or not?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>This depends whether you are man, or the Creator of men.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Do you really believe that burning people alive, people that have been deceived all of their lives, people that don’t know up from down, is not evil?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>You forget that they are deceived by themselves, and quite willfully. They know there is a God, and they do everything they can to convince themselves otherwise. They've sinned, and their very own hearts condemn them. The Bible says that God punishes them eternally, and if God does it an action is certainly not evil. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I’m really not looking for something that pleases me, I’m looking for the truth of this matter.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I believe you are trying quite hard to convince yourself of that. The bottom line is that everything I've read in this thread by you has been purely emotion driven. I have yet to read anything in your posts that begins to address this philosophically or Scripturally.<br><br>I apologize if my words are a bit hard. I do think it would be good if you would look to something other than emotion to find answers. <br><br>[color:red]<center>"So feed us all another lie; to sooth our thoughts, appease our pride. <br>So we won't have to change the way we see, we live, we love, we die." -- Thrice</center></font color=red>

Wes<br>Great questions. To go along these same lines, I read maybe on this board something that puts it into perspective.<br><br>In the beginning God created man in His own image, and ever since that day man has been trying to repay the favor."

Hehe, that is a good quote, Linda. I'm going to write that down. It's funny, though at the same time not funny at all for it is very true. I know that for many years of my life I argued against some true doctrines of God on the basis of my view of how I thought He "should" be. This postmodern world doesn't realize that if an Infinite God exists and we are only finite, then there has to be some way of communicating the Infinite's nature to the finite so that they can understand. God pierced the veil between us from sin with His Word, and there is no other way by which we could ever know what He is like.<br><br>Chris

Chris, <br><br>You raise an interesting point that leads me to a question, Are we finite only because we had a beginning or because without salvation we also have an end?<br><br><br>Some call it conditional immortality. <br><br>Are there or were there any conservative theologians that support the view?<br>

I found one theologian who has some connection to The Highway, Philip E. Hughes. <br>He believed in a conditional immortality.<br><br>Philip Edgecumbe Hughes was Visiting Professor at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia and Associate Rector of St. John's Episcopal Church, Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. His other works include Theology of the English Reformers, Commentary on II Corinthians, But for the Grace of God, and Confirmation in the Church Today. [quoted from website below]<br><br>He also wrote, The true Image: The Orgin and destiny of man in Christ, which deals with his view of eternity.<br><br>His teaching on The Highway [on a different subject] : http://www.the-highway.com/millennium10_Hughes.html<br>

Question 2.) Yes<br>Question 3.) Yes<br><br>Question 1.) Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of Man, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say in the rest of your question, you have given me a contradiction, impossible to answer.<br><br>A logical inconsistency, a contradiction: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true.<br><br>1. Not separate.<br>2. Not co-mingled.<br><br>You have asserted more than one proposition in such a way that both cannot be true!<br><br>You’re asking me to say that a square circle exists!<br>