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#4125 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:26 AM Re: Contradiction  
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A logical inconsistency, a contradiction: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true.<br><br>1. Not separate.<br>2. Not co-mingled.<br><br>You have asserted more than one proposition in such a way that both cannot be true!<br><br>I am kind of curious. How exactly is that a contradiction in your mind? Could you expand on your response a little? With that in mind, you are familiar with the various Church councils that hashed the doctrines of Christ out in order to safe guard against theological error? Do you understand what they were stating in their conclusions and why? It may be helpful for you to have a church history lesson if you are confused.<br><br>Fred


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#4126 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:41 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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Hey Mike,<br> My answer to both questions would be yes. By definition the created is finite compared to the Creator. But, of course without salvation we do have an end. I guess, the real question would be, "To what extent is man finite?" <br><br> To go along with what I was saying earlier, man can only know of the existance of God outside of scripture. It is only through scripture the man can come to a saving knowledge of Him. As far as the extent to which we are finite, are we talking about pre/post fall condition? Is that what your term "conditional immortallity" was refering to? If man had never sinned, would we be immortal? <br><br> Perhaps, the only thing scripturally that may dispute that would be Revelation 13:8 (KJV) "And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This would make me think that if the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, then sin would seem to be unavoidable, lest Jesus be slain for nothing. <br><br> I have seen another way this passage is translated, though. Here it is in the NASB "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." I have no idea which is correct, but I do know that this way it raises pretty much the same point. If some have been predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world (which scripture clearly testifies to), then the reprobate had been destined to damnation before sin was in the world. <br><br> So theoretically I would say, 'yes', if man had never sinned it is possible that he would have never died. But realistically I don't think that would have ever happened according to what scripture says about God's design before we were created.<br><br>In Him,<br>Chris

#4127 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:56 AM Intellect vs Emotion  

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I have been told that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for infinite sin with a finite payment, eternal punishment being the required payment was paid in just 3 days by Jesus dying spiritually. I do not believe that Jesus Christ died spiritually, that’s a doctrine presented by Benny Hinn, Copeland, and the like.<br><br>Salvation, the defeat of death, is based upon a vicarious substitutionary atonement.<br><br>God’s righteousness demands that whoever sins must die, God will not be unrighteous in the way that He saves.<br><br>The human race was identified with Adam in his transgression (Rom.5:12). The "death" that came upon Adam passed unto all people.<br><br>The first step in salvation was Christ’s identification with our humanity. This took place in His Incarnation. He lived as Adam should have lived, in obedience to the Father.<br><br>(Oh, as an aside, when Adam and Eve fell and were giving their punishment, physical death, a return to the dust from which they came and a curse, hers, trouble in child birth, his, hard work there is no mention of eternal torment in the fires of “hell”! You would think that if that were going to be the punishment for most of Adam and Eve’s offspring that God would I mentioned it along with the other curses.)<br><br>1) Atonement required the “death” of a perfect man, Jesus, to pay the penalty of sin, death, against Adam.<br><br>2) If being burned alive forever is a part of “death,” the penalty could never be paid, there would be no resurrection, no salvation.<br><br>To get around this I’ve been told that Jesus Christ died spiritually. Impossible! I’ll get into this when I have the time to answer Pilgrim’s last post to me.<br><br>As for the verses used to “prove” that God is going to do the horrific acts Christians leaders describe to us I have studied them all, and they are not conclusive, I have found other explanations for all of them, intellect will let you find what you are looking for.<br><br>Paul did not preach that God was going to burn people alive forever, nether did any of the other Apostles. In the book of Acts, which covers the first 30 years of Christianity, there is no mention of God burning people alive forever. It really wasn’t a doctrine until the Roman Church took control of Christianity.<br><br>Now, you downplay emotion and elevate intellect, that’s a mistake. Intellect will allow you to justify anything, it will even allow you to call good evil, and evil good. Emotions can, at times, be clearer that intellect. With intellect you can convince yourself of just about anything, but “gut feelings”, conscience, along with intellect is now my preferred way of seeking the truth.<br><br>All of these millions of people that you say God is going to burn alive forever are mentally ill, sick, born with sin, and cannot not sin.<br><br>The Bible is full of emotional responses on the part of God, “Jesus wept” is one of my favorite verses.<br><br>God said that what they were doing in the valley of Gehenna (hell), burning their children alive in sacrifice, was an abomination to Him, I believe that it still is, and God will not do something so horid as your intellect will allow you to justify.<br><br>JER 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.<br>

#4128 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:38 AM Re: Intellect vs Emotion  
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I have been told that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for infinite sin with a finite payment, eternal punishment being the required payment was paid in just 3 days by Jesus dying spiritually. I do not believe that Jesus Christ died spiritually, that’s a doctrine presented by Benny Hinn, Copeland, and the like.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Let's be careful in how we represent what others have written. In particular is your either misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing what I wrong concerning the two types of "death" which the Lord Christ experienced. Here is the actual statement I made which spells out the nature of the "spiritual death" that Christ experienced:<blockquote>As for the Lord Christ only being in the tomb for 3 days, you should realize that His physical death is not equivalent to His spiritual death, i.e., separation from God and the enduring of the punishment put upon Him as the elect's substitute. He, being the GOD-man, endured the INFINITE wrath of God in a moment's time. What He must have had to endure is infinitely incomprehensible to one with a finite mind. But, rest assured, that unless Christ Jesus endured the FULL penalty for ALL the sins of those whom He came to die for, then no one is capable of reconciliation with God and remission of sins.</blockquote><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Salvation, the defeat of death, is based upon a vicarious substitutionary atonement.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes this is absolutely true. But what you are missing is that the "defeat of death" could only be accomplished by the payment owed, which was eternal death. Thus ipso facto, unless Christ suffered eternal punishment, then eternal life, i.e., defeat of death could not have been secured. You also totally ignored all the Scriptural references I offered to you. They were given as full texts rather than simple references so that you wouldn't have to look them up. The only comment you made was,<blockquote>As for the verses used to “prove” that God is going to do the horrific acts Christians leaders describe to us I have studied them all, and they are not conclusive, I have found other explanations for all of them, intellect will let you find what you are looking for.</blockquote>You have offered not ONE single rebuttal to any of those texts which speak of eternal punishment, hell fire, etc., etc... which were spoken by the Lord Christ Himself. In fact, He taught more about Hell and eternal torment more than any other biblical writer. Why don't you interact with HIS inspired, infallible and inerrant words? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/evilgrin.gif" alt="evilgrin" title="evilgrin[/img]<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"](Oh, as an aside, when Adam and Eve fell and were giving their punishment, physical death, a return to the dust from which they came and a curse, hers, trouble in child birth, his, hard work there is no mention of eternal torment in the fires of “hell”! You would think that if that were going to be the punishment for most of Adam and Eve’s offspring that God would I mentioned it along with the other curses.)</font><hr></blockquote><p>Oh really! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img] So God lied? These are the exact words spoken by God to Adam:<blockquote>Genesis 2:16-17 (ASV) And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for [color:red]in the day</font color=red> that thou eatest thereof [color:red]thou shalt surely die</font color=red>.</blockquote>Did Adam die on that very day as God had threatened would happen? If you restrict death to physical death, then God lied. Using the analogy of faith (interpreting Scripture with Scripture), we learn that this "death" was three-fold:<ol>[*]Physical Death: the beginning of aging and eventual death started on that day.</li>[*]Spiritual Death: separation from God due to a radical change in nature/disposition</li>[*]Eternal Death: the punishment due for the transgression was sealed.</li>[/LIST]Thus Adam and Eve died on that very day, in fact, at the very moment that they ate of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This change in nature/disposition was the one half of the punishment of "Original Sin" which came upon Adam and the entire human race. This condition, classically and theologically known as "Total Depravity" is taught throughout the Scriptures. Paul describes this death in Rom 3:10-18 and most clearly in Eph 2:1-5; 4:17-19.<br><br>Lastly, Prestor John asked you a question concerning the nature of the LORD Jesus Christ and I found your answer a bit vague. So, I would like to ask the question again but rephrased in the hopes that there will be no possibility of confusion:<br><br>QUESTION: Was Jesus of Nazareth both Jehovah God (God of very God) and man?<br><br>And for a detailed statement of what I personally believe concerning the person and nature of the LORD Jesus Christ, see below:<blockquote><center>[color:blue]The Chalcedonian Creed</font color=blue></center><br><br>Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.</blockquote>In His Grace,


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#4129 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:20 PM Re: Intellect vs Emotion  

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I am very interested in what you think about the scriptures about how the children of Israel took possession of the Promised Land? Do you believe that God was just in His commands to them as to what they were permitted to leave alive? And the Egyptians, was He just in drowning them, right after He had slain the firstborn?<br><br>After reading many of the posts it has become clear that you have already made up your mind as to what you believe, and it seems at though you wanted to prove that we could not refute it. The truth is, "though one raise from the dead" you would not believe. You seem to have the same problem Adam and Eve did when they didn't believe they would die. It would be to your advantage to read the Word without your own preconcieved and very tainted opinions. The Judge of all the earth will do right, regardless whether one of His creatures understands it or not.

#4130 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:02 PM Re: Intellect vs Emotion  

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Now, you downplay emotion and elevate intellect, that’s a mistake. Intellect will allow you to justify anything, it will even allow you to call good evil, and evil good. Emotions can, at times, be clearer that intellect. With intellect you can convince yourself of just about anything, but “gut feelings”, conscience, along with intellect is now my preferred way of seeking the truth.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I feel like you are wrong.......are you wrong?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

#4131 - Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:28 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: J_Edwards]  
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#4132 - Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:07 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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Chris,<br><br>Conditional Immoratality means that man was created with a mortal soul and can only gain immortality through Christ. After suffering in Hell for their sins they cease to exist.<br><br>Annihilationism is similar. But they begin with man being created with an immortal soul that is destroyed [annilihated] after suffering in hell.<br><br>Prevalent Doctrine has man created with an immortal soul that either is in heaven or hell forever, hence not finite.<br><br>mike

#4133 - Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:10 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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There is a line of Scripture that quoted from memorysays something to this effect, "The ways of God are ill-spoken of because of you."<br><br>The ill-speakers being the ones who portray the Lord God of whom Ap. John says, "God is love," as a sadistic head devil, - a veritable Saddam Hussein. There are some who interpret all of the Bible literally and these are the ones who are most likely to speak of literal fire torturing those in hell. There is spiritual fire, and God who is spirit, intends his word to be interpreted spiritually.<br>Let me propose that after death, hell is eternal separation from God, when a full comprehension of the enormous, incomprehensible love of God for mankind finally finds its mark - and it's too late to repent.

#4134 - Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:57 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand  
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br> ...hell is eternal separation from God... </font><hr></blockquote><p> <br><br>May I ask, is this your ONLY view what Hell is according to the scriptures??<br>Do the words "God's wrath" mean anything? <br><br>Just a few out of the myriads of verses:<br><blockquote><br>Romans 2:5<br>But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.<br><br>Romans 2:8<br>But for those who are selfseeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.<br><br>Rev 14:9,10<br>And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.</blockquote><br><br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

Last edited by carlos; Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:24 PM.

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#4135 - Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:27 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: carlos]  

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Good question. I too was wondering if the statement was saying that Hell is just a spiritual separation from God.

#4136 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:38 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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If hell was just a spiritual seperation from God then we were there before we were saved.<br><br>howard

#4137 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:06 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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Howard,<br><br>I think the difference between the seperation that we experience now and that which is to come is very different. Even now we all share in common graces recieved from God. I think that eternal seperation from God may remove even thoughs that we have now, and of course ignorance is bliss. Meaning those who now reject god will be very aware of Him, and His lack of presents in their life. I could be off base, but I think that is right.<br><br><br>Daniel

#4138 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:34 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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boy isn't that the truth!

#4139 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:38 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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If that is true where then is the justice of God. Who then pays the penalty for sin against a holy and righteous God? The elect have an substitute who paid the price for sin which the unconverted do not.

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