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Jan 15th, 2023
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Paul, Good stuff!  I am wondering, however, if John was actually lamenting that typically (at least in his experience) the doctrine of justification is being "over emphasized", i.e., to the EXCLUSION of the doctrine of sanctification, the binding of which to justification is inextricable as you have so wonderfully brought out. Put another way, I am wondering if he is perceiving a bifurcation of sanctification from justification?  Of course, I cannot help but wonder (bells aways go off when I see questions concerning justification), if the doctrine of "justification" John is referring to and being taught is actually the biblical doctrine of justification OR is it "another gospel", a counterfeit justification that only appears to be much like the biblical doctrine? Admittedly, this would be a subject for another thread.  I could pose the question like this: "Is the doctrine of justification that is popularly held, understood and/or taught either: 1. salvation by grace through faith? or 2. salvation through grace by faith? ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/sorry4.gif) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/BackToTopic.gif)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
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Plebeian
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Hi,
I agree the two are united.
What I have seen is an exclusion of sanctification altogether from thinking in this way (and I give the popular understanding):
"We are justified, therefore our sin has been dealt with. Thus there is no need to deal constructively with sin that we may have committed before we were saved. Any "destruction" brought on us through that sin is now abolished in Christ."
But to me this confuses the distinction between the guilt of sin and the destruction wrought in our lives by sin. we are simply not made "whole", in the sense that we are instantaneously restored to the perfect image of God, at conversion. That restoration of character takes a lifetime.
I had the unfortunate episode of teaching on this process of restoration in a "good" Bible believing evangelical church and being told I was a heretic and "denying the gospel" because, as far as they were concerned, I was denying justification. I agree with you that they probably had a truncated view of justification but the elements of their doctrine were probably essentially right on justification. Just they had majored so long on that aspect of the faith that the whole concept of sanctification had slowly been corrupted in their thinking.
John B
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Head Honcho
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Yes, this is unfortunately a popular teaching. My usual brief and to-the-point answer is generally, "Christ has saved us FROM our sins, not IN our sins, thus 'be ye holy as He is holy'." 
simul iustus et peccator
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...but hardly ever a sense of - oh by the way, your still going to struggle and fall and that's ok, your still saved, don't worry, just pick yourself back up and try again. - I believe it is biblical to press people to holiness, and not give a free pass on sin, at least that is what I find in scripture. It has become to comfortable in that many church members do not grieve over sin. Instead of sin, it becomes, oops, I made a mistake but God forgives me. We shoudn't feel good about our sin. Don't you think that might be one of the reasons the church is so weak today? The light of the church is all but extinquished because of sin and compromise. People aren't becoming more wicked, people have always been as wicked as they would ever be, it is that the church is getting weaker and not having an impact anymore, darkness overtaking swallowing the light. We need holiness in the churches to impact the world. Now don't misunderstand, I'm not condemning those that fall into sin, but instead of saying that's okay, don't worry, maybe say it grieved God to do that, however there is forgiveness in confession 1 Jn. 1:9. Let them seek God's forgiveness and allow God to be the one who imputes the forgiveness because of a truly broken heart instead. We tend to "let people off the hook" to easily and that isn't scriptural. How do we know it is okay, maybe the person really isn't repentent. I know I have a hard time conveying my thoughts, but basically what I'm saying, is it is God who will say it is okay or not. It doesn't matter what any member says about my sin or forgiveness, I'm not going to be okay until God "lets me off the hook". Now we as a church, if the person has shown repentence on the issue, then encourage them on. We don't remove a part of the body because it got a scratch we take care of it until it is healed, and that is what we do with that member who sinned. All I'm saying is that, sometimes I think that people should be less worried about everything being perfect When God said "Be Holy as I am Holy", I believe He meant it, so yes we should be worried about perfection. If we keep saying a person can never be perfect, eventually they will quit trying. I press on, haven't reached it but I'm not going to give up defeated, I believe it is possible because all things are possible with God, it is too easy to just call it quits in striving against sin. Also, I believe there must be a fine balance in all the Christian life, there is joy there too, but our joy is only in relation to how close we are to God. and more worried about forgiving each other and encouraging each other. We're all in the same boat. I believe you are right about forgiving and encouraging each other, but in relation to our seeking to please God and glorifying Him. If you are speaking of forgiving and encouraging a repentent brother, then of course, we don't keep pounding on the person. An example if this is found in 2 Cor. 6-7 NASB 6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority,7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, lest somehow such a one be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. Notice first though, the punishment inflicted by the majority, where the man was turned away from the church, but upon his repentence brought back in. .....didn't get a deep sense of love and kindness and it was all kind of cold. I have been in churches that have very little love in them, I never could understand that and it is sad. Right living does nothing but bring joy, a joy and love that can't be hidden, so since I can't see hearts, I really can't address the reason for that. He want's us to know His peace and love. That's the Good News. Yes it is, but we can't know that unless we draw close to Him, and we can't draw close to Him until there is confession and cleansing. Again, as in the beginning, I want God to assure the people that they are forgiven, I don't want to deceive someone into thinking they are okay when they aren't. Hisalone Hisalone First I would just like to point out that my original post is meant for Christians. I'm not talking about unbelievers. I just wanted to make that clear. I have to say that I don't agree with you on your comment about "if a person says that they can never be perfect." Yes God does say that we should be holy.... and we are. We are perfectly holy because of our faith in Christ, not because of our own works. Here is a great article on the subject that defines what I'm talking about. What is Means to be Truly Sanctified by Shane Rosenthal
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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I have to say that I don't agree with you on your comment about "if a person says that they can never be perfect." Yes God does say that we should be holy.... and we are. We are perfectly holy because of our faith in Christ, not because of our own works. Here is a great article on the subject that defines what I'm talking about. What is Means to be Truly Sanctified by Shane RosenthalI realize holiness is separation, but separation from what? When we are called to be holy, we are called to be separate from the world/sin. For clarity, I do not believe this adds to our salvation, that was accomplished by Christ alone, but where do we go from there? Do we live defeated lives, with the thought we can never be like Christ? Our unbelief hinders the work of God so often. I believe in an all powerful God who can do as He desires. I didn't say He will make a person completely Holy, but in the same way, I will not say He can't or won't. I press on, seeking to attain, to be one with Christ where I would only do and say those things that Christ approved of. We must not allow our knowledge to get in the way of what God can do. I ask, seek and knock knowing that nothing is impossible with God. Too many are too comfortable accepting who they are, redeemed sinners who will sin, I'm not satisfied with that, even if I fail in this flesh, I won't give up and I won't ever say God can't change me completely. Actually, the times we are allowed to fall into sin are not without profit for the repentent believer, these failures give a stronger resolve to resist sin in the future as well as teaching us about ourselves and remind us of who God is.
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
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