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#4140 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:31 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  
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Linda,<br>Good questions. That's along same lines of what I was thinking in my earlier response.<br><br><br>Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
#4141 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:25 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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I understand...but I don't think that the hell that is to come is the same as the hell that is now for the unregenerate. I do agree that the end result is the same, however now the unregenerate are, on a certain level, unaware or ignorant to their seperation. In regards to your question I don't think that I understand what it is. Perhaps, in my inability to articulate myself I was confuseing. If you could tell me what it sounded like I said I would be happy to answer the question.<br><br><br>Daniel

#4142 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:30 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  
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Daniel,<br><br>Perhaps an earthly example might suffice to reveal the difference in what Linda and others are trying to convey? In this life, if one is convicted of the crime of murder and sentenced to "life" imprisonment, that is "separation" from society and thus it is considered to be punishment. However, in the heavenly court, the crime of being a sinner and/or to have committed sin against the eternal and most holy God is guilty of eternal punishment. This punishment, although it includes "separation" is far more than that. The Lord Christ described hell as a place where the inhabitants will experience torment, gnashing of teeth, etc., where they will eternally cry out for relief from the pangs of suffering. Does that help clarify things for you? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


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#4143 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:02 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]There are some who interpret all of the Bible literally and these are the ones who are most likely to speak of literal fire torturing those in hell. There is spiritual fire, and God who is spirit, intends his word to be interpreted spiritually.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Could you please access for me from the scriptures where it says the we are to interpret the bible spiritually and not according to basic rules of grammar, and consistent hermeneutic?<br>

#4144 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:28 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand  
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I think the difference between the seperation that we experience now and that which is to come is very different. Even now we all share in common graces recieved from God. I think that eternal seperation from God may remove even thoughs that we have now . . . .</font><hr></blockquote><p>Can there be any greater suffering than an eternal judgment by God in which He removes all common grace and says to the unrepentant sinner, "Not My will but thy will be done!"? I can't think of one.<br><br>Clay

#4145 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:50 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: onefear]  
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Can there be any greater suffering than an eternal judgment by God in which He removes all common grace and says to the unrepentant sinner, "Not My will but thy will be done!"? I can't think of one.</font><hr></blockquote><p>But Clay,<br><br>Not only would but CAN God relinquish "HIS will" to that of an unrepentant sinner? To do so would be to dethrone Himself and to become "non-God". Secondly, would you be so kind as to perhaps explain/describe how some of these texts fit into your idea of "separation"?<blockquote>Matthew 13:42 (KJV) "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."<br><br>Matthew 8:29 (KJV) "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (The implication here is that Christ will be more than passive in the punishment of the wicked)<br><br>Luke 16:28 (KJV) "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."<br><br>Revelation 14:11 (KJV) "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."<br><br>Matthew 25:41 (ASV) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:" (There appears to be both a "departing" TO "eternal fire" and not just a departing FROM God)</blockquote>In His Grace,


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#4146 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:19 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Regarding your questions whether "God [CAN]relinquish "HIS will" to that of an unrepentant sinner," I was speaking figuratively, in the sense that in eternal punishment God gives the unrepentant sinner over to the desires of his heart of stone, without restraint, limitation, or end. The sinner is released to the full effect of sin and its consequences. God ceases to have a will to restrain the consequences of the sinner's sin, and the consequences of judgment flow from the unrepentant sinner's depravity, and its ensuing consequences.<br><br>Regarding separation, I agree with you that Hell is more than mere separation from God, but it is not less. Isn't the historical position is that Scripture's darkness metaphor refers to separation? In another sense, as you point out, the dreadfulness of Hell is related to God's presence, not in grace and blessing, but in holy wrath. Per Luther: "Not as though the ungodly see God and His appearance as the godly will see Him; but they will feel the power of His presence, which they will not be able to bear, and yet will be forced to bear. . . .This chief and unbearable punishment God will inflict with His mere appearance, that is with the revelation of His wrath."<br><br>As for the scriptures and how literally we should take the Bible's graphic descriptions of Hell's eternal torment, I am undecided. Even Berkhof excercises caution on this point. Also consider Calvin:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Now, because no description can deal adequately with the gravity of God's vengance against the wicked, their torments and tortures are figuratively expressed to us by physical things, that is by darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth [Matt. 8:12; 22:13], unquenchable fire [Matt 3:12; Mark 9:43; Isa. 66:24], and undying worm gnawing at the heart [Isa. 66:24]. By such expressions the Holy Spirit certainly intended to confound all our senses with dread . . . . As by such details we should be enabled in some degree to conceive the lot of the wicked, so we ought especially to fix our thoughts upon this: how wretched it is to be cut off from all fellowship with God.<br><br>Institutes 3.25.12.</font><hr></blockquote><p>When I think of the hell that my unbelieving friends and acquaintances will have to endure if they remain unrepentant, it is the separation from the fellowship with God that most moves me in my desires for them and the in little I know of the joy of that fellowship as a believer until the day that we see Him as He is.<br><br>Clay

#4147 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:38 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: onefear]  
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Clay,<br><br>In case you missed my reply where I also wrote that I believe that the language used to describe Hell and its torments were to be taken "figuratively" (as opposed to literally and/or "spiritually"). Thus, I would be in 100% agreement with Berkhof's remarks and the quote from Calvin. My point, which I evidently failed to convey clearly, was that the modern idea that hell is nothing more than "separation" (alienation), i.e., God's presence is lacking contradicts both the Omnipresence of God and the clear statements of Scripture, of which I only quoted by a few, which describe hell as a place of torment, pain, suffering, agony, etc. I also believe that although those in hell will be unrestrained and thus vent their total capacity for wickedness, there is a positive punishment exacted upon them by God Himself for their rebellion and transgression against Him. In short, much of the torment experienced in hell will be due to the punishment exacted upon the inhabitants by God in addition to that which they will naturally experience from each other's wickedness. One thing is for sure.... it is beyond my comprehension and it makes me shudder even at the thought of it.<br><br>On the other hand, I cannot comprehend the glory which awaits those who belong to Christ. The descriptions in Scripture are even more incredible than those which describe hell. There is so much which has not been revealed and no doubt for a good reason.<br><br>Maranatha! Lord come quickly!! Amen<br><br>In His Grace,<br>


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#4148 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:12 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Yes, I got all that and agree with it. Thanks for giving me a place to think about all of the awe-some and fearful doctrines out loud! I included that Calvin quote mainly to try to communicate that for Calvin and for me the worst part of hell from a Christian's perspective isn't the pain, suffering, and agony, but the fact that those being punished will spend an eternity NEVER experiencing the intimate fellowship with God that He created mankind for and the glory which awaits those who belong to Christ. Thanks for persevering with me through my thinking aloud, Pilgrim.<br><br>God's Peace,<br>Clay

#4149 - Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:24 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: onefear]  
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Clay,<br><br>If it helped..... then great! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/joy.gif" alt="joy" title="joy[/img] Have you ever read Jonathan Edward's sermon, which is probably hated more than his infamous, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", albeit not as well known: The End of the Wicked Contemplated ...ccasion Of Grief to the Saints in Heaven? What can one say, but it is very [Linked Image]. And the title is far too long! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt="rolleyes" title="rolleyes[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


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#4150 - Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:44 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: Pilgrim]  

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And in response to the thoughts on how glorious heaven will be, have you ever read the last chapter of "Charity and It's Fruits" by Edwards. The best description of heaven I have ever read. When I read this it was such a comfort to me knowing that my daughter was in a place so wonderful with the Savior.

#4151 - Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:41 AM Re: Please Help Me Understand  
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linda,<br><br>His sermon, "THE PORTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS", also has excellent descriptions of heaven.<br><br><br>Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
#4152 - Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:47 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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I Cor 1:12-14

#4153 - Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:16 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand [Re: carlos]  

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"As far as East is from the West, so far are my thoughts from your thoughts."<br>"Wrath of MAN worketh not the rightesounesss of God."<br><br>It is tragic that of all people, those who claim to be his, should even think of him in connection with deliberate, long-planned torture. It should boggle the minds of atheists. God the Father in fact is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and plenteous in mercy. Eternal separation from such an One is quite enough; heartfelt regret is part of that eternal punishment. Read the posts and weep: most of even those who claim to be renewed in God's image sound as if they have buried their one talent and your god and theirs turns out to be 'a hard man'. Mt 25:24

#4154 - Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:19 PM Re: Please Help Me Understand  

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to howard: not those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life.

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