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#41893 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:01 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Originally Posted by CovenantInBlood
Just based on the little information we have here, my advice would be for him to get in touch with an ordained minister, even if it is the one he mentions 200 miles away. Arrangements should be made, if possible, for the minister to come to baptize these people. Or, if that is not possible, perhaps Mr. Masih can travel to the city & seek ordination? Then he could come back & baptize these people.
The information if very scetchy and so for Im with you. There will be a lot more involved that getting some folks wet as time passes.

H

Last edited by Hitch; Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:02 PM.

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#41894 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:07 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
hisalone,

VERY briefly, this is a matter of the biblical teaching re: "ecclesiology", the doctrine of the Church. Most Reformed believers, at least in the past as this is not the case now unfortunately, held to a high view of the Church. The Bible provides the definition of the Church as well as how it is to function (aka: church order). One of the elements of that order is the ordination of men to the offices of Elder and Deacon. It is through these men that the Holy Spirit works. It is through these men that the Word is preached and taught, worship is to be conducted and the sacraments (notice the terminology here) are to be administered. They are responsible for proper worship and practice in their respective assemblies over which God has appointed them "overseers" and "under shepherds".

It matters not, in regard to administering the sacraments; not ordinances as some would prefer to call them, whether the man has a seminary education nor that he is in your estimation "qualified". I may agree that many men should not even be Elders/Pastors today. But nonetheless, it is God's will that such men administer the sacraments as part of the official corporate worship of God; either as preparatory to entrance into the visible Church or for the edification of true believers who are already members of the Church.

In His grace,
My view is that Saul should do all possible to submit to church authority setting a good precedent for his group, agreed?


Marxism is the opiate of the academy.
#41895 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:09 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Paul_S]  
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Originally Posted by Paul_S
Hisalone,

Treading lightly so as not to steer this too far away from Hitch's question, but I think it is not off-topic because the principles at stake are what this Pakistani believer is facing, I wanted to add something to what Pilgrim said. The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) and Acts 2:42 are two of several passages that strongly link baptism and teaching, which means that the one baptizing should be recognized by the church--that is, ordained--as a man called, trained and able to teach.
Great point


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#41896 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:11 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: sojourner]  
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Originally Posted by sojourner
Pilgrim,
Your point is well taken and I certainly did not mean to circumvent scripture when the word "I" was used.What would you have this man do assuming all was in order concerning the salvation of these people?
I think Paul spooke well to that liking baptism and (further) teaching.


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#41897 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:13 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
sojourner,

The immediate problem I have with your approach is that I cannot find in Scripture where a sole believer baptized anyone, not even a Deacon. I am more than reluctant to plunge head-on according to what "I" may think works, aka: pragmatism or is appropriate, aka: egalitarianism in matters of how the Lord Jesus Christ would have His Church function. Perhaps I have missed that portion of Scripture where a non-Apostle or non-Elder/Bishop/Pastor baptized someone AND where (if there is such a recorded incident) this is said to be paradigmatic, i.e., something to be practiced in all the churches universally. shrug

In His grace,
I was about to ask you whether you knew of a passage in which pew sitter A dunks pew sitter B.


Marxism is the opiate of the academy.
#41898 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:17 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by sojourner
What would you have this man do assuming all was in order concerning the salvation of these people?

1. Seek the counsel of godly men who are ordained in a reputable denomination/congregation.
2. Submit to the authority of those men:
- a. to be examined by them to discern his confession, life and knowledge of Scripture.
- b. to seek to be authorized by those men to continue in his evangelistic efforts, i.e., accountability.
- c. oversight in the work he is doing and joining with them
3. Petition those men to come and examine those who have allegedly professed in Christ.
4. Allow those men to baptize them this time IF warranted and any time thereafter until he could be ordained.

The salvation of those who have true faith in Christ is not dependent upon baptism; ala Rome and some cults. So, it is not expedient that these alleged believers be baptized now. It is more expedient that God's will be obeyed in these manners. Faithfulness has abundant rewards attached to it. grin
I can see a possib;le situation; These people take some risk claiming to be followers of Christ- Mockers say then why are you afraid to be baptized ?,,you are not true followers of Christ . Point being it may be much more important to thedm because of thier situation political/religious. Should we bend to accomodate?

Last edited by Hitch; Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:18 PM.

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#41899 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:26 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Hitch]  
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I'll keep every one informed but rather that bog down the forum here is a link to the thread. Its a very small forum and it easy to find your way around.


http://www.swordforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=476

Can I baptize People





So far I'm taking what Saul posts at face value and going from there. All we have seen is from a couple of posts. It could all be true or not. At any rate thanx for your thoughts and concerns.

H

Last edited by Hitch; Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:00 PM.

Marxism is the opiate of the academy.
#41900 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:41 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Hitch]  
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yep It is important that he set a good example in his faithfulness to God's revealed will. This faithfulness entails the recognition and submission to the structures of authority set forth in Scripture: God, ordained office bearers within Christ's Church, government, employers, and parents. All these God-appointed authorities are to be obeyed "as unto the Lord". We must not circumvent their authority by our modern "autonomous individualism" thinking. And, let's never forget that all the individual congregations (churches... the TRUE churches) are part of THE Church... PART, an indispensable part of the one true Church. One of the most beautiful and illustrious passages of this truth is found here:

Quote
Hebrews 12:22-24 (ASV) "but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel."

It's an awesome thing to understand what it means to belong to the Church of the Lord Christ. grin

In His grace,


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#41901 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:44 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Does Matt 28:19, 20 REALLY teach that any believer is to make disciples and then to baptize them in the name of the Triune God?


Quote
Matthew 28:16-20 (ASV) "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped [him]; but some doubted. And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."


Originally Posted by Pilgrim

CONTEXT, context, context...


I must disagree with what you are saying. First of all, your conclusion would mean that baptism should have ended after the apostles since Christ is speaking to them. Secondly, this is the same rationale that led the early church into popery. Although it isn't through physical generation such as Peter's lineage, you are still saying that only those of apostolic succession, meaning beginning with the ordinations conducted by the apostles until this day are genuine baptisms. How do I know if my pastor is of a pure "spiritual" blood line?

Because Christ spoke to the apostles does not mean that the words were solely meant for them, they were meant for the whole church. He doesn't say baptize and then appoint others giving them authority to baptize, He was giving instructions to the church also.

Pilgrim, our problem is that we see baptism's purpose differently. I believe you consider it to be a holy sacrament that has some form of merit attached to it, where I see it as a step of obedience with no merit or grace giving qualities attached. The only merit or grace that we ever receive is solely through Christ, never because of anything we do. Our actions are only steps of obedience so if the heart is right by the baptized and the baptizer understands what he is doing, being orthodox, then there is no reason one cannot be baptized. As far as delay, I think this is an important step and delaying can actually cause harm if the person is at that place of conviction in their lives and desire to take this important step.

I think the steps you outlined are good, I do believe that there has to be confirmation that the teaching is correct before baptizing, otherwise it may be idolatry. I believe care must be taken to keep all the holy ordinances free from error, otherwise it is the same as false teaching from the Bible itself. However step 4 I disagree with:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

4. Allow those men to baptize them this time IF warranted and any time thereafter until he could be ordained.


I believe ordination is over rated today, and that it should be evident in a person's life whether they are called of God or not. Ordination in the denomination I am part of, is a joke, they would ordain a frog if it could speak. Sorry, but that is how I feel about ordination. BTW, I'm not ordained, nor do I intend to seek ordination, I don't really care to be included in the group. I also believe ordination is for a pastor, recognizing that person's calling. However, back to the criteria for that, as long as they have a degree and can answer the questions properly, then the person is ordained, hardly anyone seeks to determine if the person is filled with the Spirit, which was the purpose of ordination in the first place. People full of the Spirit. Sorry, off on a tangent, and off topic. My point is, it should be evident whether a person is a called pastor/teacher, baptizer or whatever, it is God's appointing/ordaining, not man's. The church's appointing is only recognizing that God has already ordained the person. During the Apostles, there was a different dynamic than we have today and we must recognize that.



Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#41903 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:48 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: hisalone]  
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Originally Posted by hisalone
I must disagree with what you are saying. First of all, your conclusion would mean that baptism should have ended after the apostles since Christ is speaking to them.

nope The Apostles were sent out to establish and increase the Church, first and foremost, through the preaching of the Word and to disciple (teach) those who responded in faith. In those new churches (remember now that the purpose of the Apostles was to lay the foundation upon the cornerstone of Christ and thus their work was temporary)... see Eph 2:19-22. The remaining structure of the Church was accomplished through their appointing Elders in the various churches (cf. Acts 15:41; 16:4f 20:17ff; Titus 1:5).

I think it not expedient to include an entire biblical defense of the biblical teaching concerning the Eldership, their qualifications and duties. There are many good books that have been written on this subject, e.g., D. Douglas Bannerman's The Scripture Doctrine of the Church and James Bannerman's The Church of Christ.

Originally Posted by hisalone
Secondly, this is the same rationale that led the early church into popery. Although it isn't through physical generation such as Peter's lineage, you are still saying that only those of apostolic succession, meaning beginning with the ordinations conducted by the apostles until this day are genuine baptisms.

nope The Apostles established the churches and set in place the government, the order of the Church everywhere they went. This order did not vary according to location, circumstances, etc. for it was Christ through His Spirit Who instructed the Apostles in these matters. The government of the Church was therefore an organic entity which perpetuated itself after it was giving life. Elders and Deacons were to be continually ordained after the Apostles had gone. Paul says as much here, Acts 20:25-38. But it must be remembered that the offices of Elder and Deacon were not something which the Apostles conjured up but rather they simply started what Christ Himself had established for and in His own Church. For it is He, the Head of the Church Who appointed those offices (cf. Eph 4:11, 12).

Originally Posted by hisalone
Pilgrim, our problem is that we see baptism's purpose differently. I believe you consider it to be a holy sacrament that has some form of merit attached to it, where I see it as a step of obedience with no merit or grace giving qualities attached.

nope to all of this. The problem is not baptism; i.e., how we differ on how we understand what Scripture teaches concerning it. Secondly, I do consider it to be a sacrament for through both baptism and the Lord's Supper the Holy Spirit is active in the hearts of true believers; i.e., grace. But I totally reject any notion of "merit"... shame on you!! scold

Originally Posted by hisalone
I believe ordination is over rated today, and that it should be evident in a person's life whether they are called of God or not. Ordination in the denomination I am part of, is a joke,... etc.

Let me give you some brotherly advice. grin You should cease and desist from formulating your personal views (doctrine) based upon your own experience. It makes no difference, does it, that the liberal churches deny the deity of Christ as to the truthfulness of that doctrine? That Christ is God incarnate, was born, crucified dead and buried and rose the third day is not true because the majority say it is. Nor is its verity demolished because some/many deny it. It's truthfulness is based upon God's infallible written Word. Okay, so in this matter of the ordination of the Eldership and its role and responsibilities, it doesn't matter one iota how corrupt your church or denomination is. They do not define truth. And their abuse, neglect or denial of truth, either in word or in practice is NOT TO BE that which we formulate doctrine. wink It is CHRIST'S Church and He has sent in order how it is to governed, its worship, membership, etc..... And we are simply to gladly submit to what HE has written by His Spirit.

In His grace,


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#41905 - Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:12 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim

But I totally reject any notion of "merit"... shame on you!! scold

Oops, my bad,I was thinking of the idea of baptizing infants, making them a part of the covenant people of God, that seems to be a type of merit to me, sorry, my mistake.

I appreciate the brotherly advice, and because you can't see my facial expression, I want you do know this isn't being said sarcastically. I cannot cease and desist from believing my convictions. Also, my beliefs are not based on experience, I only mentioned the problem with ordination as an example of the problems with the whole ordination process today, a personal reflection, not what I base my doctrine on.

My only fault, if you want to accuse me of something, is that I think on my own, my thoughts and comments have never crossed scripture, only they don't fit the framework of some, because of that, the ideas are unacceptable and never even really considered, just defended. We sometimes actually protect ourselves so well, even when the truth does come along, it doesn't get through. I know we must be careful not to be heretical, but in the same way, we must not allow ourselves to be so confined into an area just because someone said it in the past, I believe the Spirit is still teaching, not adding to revelation, but revealing more of the mystery. One of the reasons I like this discussion board and the responses is because it does challenge me. Keep in mind, I believe all the cardinal doctrines of scripture, I believe the doctrine of election and predestination, I hold to the Ammilenial view (which is contrary to the majority I worship with) I believe in Heaven and Hell, etc etc. I just view some things differently.

I don't want anyone to be angry if they are in disagreement, I disagree with quite a few posts I've seen on this discussion board, but again, it causes me to think, and that is good and why I'm here off and on.


Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#41907 - Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:35 AM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: hisalone]  
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One can have very strong "convictions" but still be woefully wrong. wink

Again, I hold to a high view of the Church, which you claim to also hold but ironically we are at opposite ends on many different things, not excluding this particular issue in regard to the Church and even in regard to epistemology. The Church is not you, the Holy Spirit and your Bible, aka: "Solo Scriptura" (do I hear an echo? laugh). The true Church consists of ALL believers from all time. And, the Holy Spirit was and will continue to be resident in the minds and hearts of those who are brought into that great assembly of the saints.

Among those saints He, the Holy Spirit has gifted mightily men in different ages by whom the truth of God's Word has been defined, documented and defended. Being that there is but ONE TRUTH, those who would disagree with or even disregard the wisdom of those who have been used of God for the purpose of defending that truth have the onus thrust upon them to show where these men have gone astray. This task is a daunting one indeed and is one which necessitates sound exegesis of Scripture and not simply a rejection of a view out of hand because you have a "conviction" of some new "truth" or "insight" that contradicts the established tradition of the Church. By God's grace, men such as Martin Luther did exactly this in his day against the corrupt traditions and teachings of Rome. So, if you are wanting to stand against what you deem "man's tradition", even though that tradition is grounded solidly upon the Scripture which has stood the test of time and men, please do so but knowing that you stand against the teachings of some of the most brilliant and godly men to ever walk this earth.

Have fun! grin

In His grace,


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#41908 - Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:57 AM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim,

I appreciate your restraint in not seeking to reprimand someone that has an opposite view.

Quote
NASB
2 Tim. 24 And the Lordís bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


Additionally, I have been having fun, and I believe I will continue to do so, unless of course the overall mood were to change to one of condemnation and brow beating. I appreciate that we can discuss without having verbal daggers thrown, each must decide on their own, I don't see anything wrong with giving opposing sides of issues. If you are right and I'm wrong, it should at least strengthen the resolve on the issue. For me, I actually was pre-millenial (never really looking into the issue, just taking what I was taught) but through this discussion board, seeing a reason to question the premil camp, I changed my view. That and after reading Riddlebarger (excellent book "A Case for Amillennialism), I became convinced. Sorry for getting off topic, just wanted to respond to your post.

Until the next great difference of opinion, God Bless



Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#41915 - Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:32 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: hisalone]  
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Originally Posted by hisalone
My only fault, if you want to accuse me of something, is that I think on my own, my thoughts and comments have never crossed scripture, only they don't fit the framework of some, because of that, the ideas are unacceptable and never even really considered, just defended. We sometimes actually protect ourselves so well, even when the truth does come along, it doesn't get through. I know we must be careful not to be heretical, but in the same way, we must not allow ourselves to be so confined into an area just because someone said it in the past, . . .


I seem to remember a picture of you with two young children (cute kids), so just out of curiosity, do you catechise your children? If so what do you use? I hope I am not misrepresenting you with the above quote.

Peace,
William




#41917 - Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:53 PM Re: HowWouldYouAnswerThis? [Re: William]  
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Hi William,

We used "Training Hearts, Teaching Minds" by Starr Meade (I highly recommend!). You would probably be surprised how orthodox I really am. I am baptist, so there are a few baptist nuances I hold, but then there are some other things in which I'm in disagreement with baptists, there isn't any denomination that has completely satisfied me, so I make adjustments. I also have an extensive library of puritan/reformed works which do not just sit on the shelf, but are read and referred to as often as possible.

I do like to think through things, not just accepting things because everyone else does. As I said, premil is an example of my changed thinking, I'm not beyond changing my views if I'm convinced of something, it is all part of growing. My kids aren't messed up, I also have an older daughter who can hold her own in a theological discussion. I started giving her theological training at the age of 4, no books, just puritan thoughts I gleaned during my reading.


God Bless


Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
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