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#42215 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:55 AM Israel being cut off  
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hisalone Offline
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I do not spend a lot of time studying Eschatology, but it has been rolling around in my mind recently. I accept the view presented as Amillenialism, and have been considering the nation of Israel. We speak of them being cut off, but cut off from what? It isn't being cut off from the church/salvation because there are still Israelites being saved. As I thought on this, it came to my mind that they were not cut off from the "church" per se, but cut off from their mission as God's chief representatives on earth. This should make the church today take notice, we too, as the corporate church have lost our focus and are failing our mission. Today's church is all about evangelism, social works and a multitude of other aspects of the Christian life but nobody seeks after Holiness of life.

Worship should be a holy exercise and the priority of the church, but it is not. That was Israels primary responsibility, to be a holy people on earth with everything focused on God and His worship,being a people very much "unlike" the world, but they failed. It is the same with the church, we are to be a holy people on earth with worship as our priority, but we are failing, not being much different than the world. How much longer until the times of the gentiles comes to an end, when the Gentile church no longer has a mission, and are replaced by the nation of Israel?

I am just throwing this out there to spur some thinking, but I believe God can and will re-establish Israel as His chosen representatives on earth, restoring the primary mission to them due to the failures of the gentile church. This does not suggest the church on earth dies, but the chief place will be restored to the nation of Israel. I see the visible church on earth slowly dying so this is by no means far fetched.


Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#42216 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:35 AM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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Actually, the Amil view holds that Israel as a nation has been cut off. It's purpose was fulfilled in the coming of Christ and it failed to keep covenant with God. WITHIN the nation of Israel was the TRUE Israel (Rom 9:6) which is the Church of the Living God, i.e., the elect, true believers, those predestined to salvation in Christ, the invisible Church, et al.

There are those, of course, within the Amil camp who believe that the Jews will have revival and many will be saved before Christ returns. They base this view on Rom 11:26. Personally, I do not hold to that view because I believe Paul is referring to "Israel" in that passage as the true Church, i.e., all the elect. For a defense of this view see here: Paul's Theology of Future Israel. Could there be a mass conversion of Jews sometime before Christ returns? Surely...... why not? But a large conversion of Jews does not equate to the "nation of Israel".

As for the "visible church on earth slowly dying", this is YOUR observation. But what is God's point of view about the Church given His vantage point and decree? First of all, we must come to understand, despite what our Postie brothers claim, that the true Church has been and always will be a remnant. The "size" of the Church increases and decreases as the Lord wills at various times to accomplish His purposes. Size seems to be a fascination of man but evidently not to God. wink Secondly, our Lord distinctly said HE will build HIS Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So, by faith we believe that even today the true Church is being built and ALL who have been predestined to be a part of Christ's body ARE being called by the irresistible work of the Spirit, regenerated, justified and sanctified. What a glorious comfort to know this. And lastly, this building of the true Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles. But the "nation of Israel" is no more; the theocratic nation which God established with Abraham. It estranged itself due to its spiritual adultery and the curses which were part of the covenant made with them are their lot due to their disobedience. (cf. Jer 3:1) God fulfilled His part of the covenant, but Israel was and has continued to be covenant breakers.


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#42219 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:03 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: Pilgrim]  
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I think we are talking about two different things, I'm not referring to the salvation of the "nation" of Israel, I'm talking about their position in the scheme of God's plan. It answers some of the questions posed by Isaiah 60 in relation to Israel as well as other prophecies concerning Israel. Keep in mind, I just posted this for thought, I didn't say I'm locked in on my thoughts, I'm working through it, that's all, just putting it up for discussion. "If their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" Rom. 11:15



Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#42221 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:07 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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What "I'm" talking about is an accurate exegesis of the Romans 11 passage. grin

William Hendriksen's "Summary" from his Commentary on Romans, v. 2 pp. 391, 392 I believe is on the money. As is typical of Hendriksen, his exegesis is thorough, faithful to the Greek, consistent with the whole of Scripture and most always indisputable.



Summary of Chapter 11


Since chapter 10 closed with a description of Israel as disobedient and obstinate, it is not surprising that chapter 11 starts with the question, “Did God reject his people?” Did he in his wrath completely and irrevocably thrust Israel away from himself?

Paul answers, “God did not reject his people whom he foreknew,” that is, on whom, from before the founding of the universe, he had set his love. “Look at me,” says Paul, as it were. “I am an Israelite, and God did not reject me.” He implies: there is always a remnant chosen by God. In fact, does not verse 5 suggest this thought?

This was true in the days of Elijah, as related in I Kings 19:1-18. When the disconsolate prophet complained that he alone had remained faithful and that his life too was in jeopardy, the Lord told him, “I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

As to those Israelites who did not respond favorably to God’s gracious invitations but hardened their hearts against the gospel, God “gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear, to this very day.” Cf. Deut. 29:4; Isa. 6:9. To such people the words of David (see Ps. 69:22, 23) apply, “Let their table become a snare before them, a retribution and a stumbling block,” etc.

All this is summarized in the words of Rom. 11:7, “What Israel is seeking so earnestly it has not obtained, but the elect have obtained it. The others were hardened” (verses 1-10). Does this mean then that for these hardened ones, who as yet have not displayed any signs of having been elected from eternity, there is no hope? It does not.

We now learn that God gathers to himself a remnant even from this sin-hardened majority. Paul asks, “Did they stumble so as to fall?” He answers, “Of course not! Rather, because of their trespass salvation (has come) to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.” This shows that it was not final, irrevocable doom God had in mind when he initially hardened the hearts of those who had hardened themselves. On the contrary, God was using even Israel’s trespass in order to serve as a link in the chain of salvation, so as to save both Gentile and Jew.

“Because of their trespass salvation (has come) to the Gentiles.” When the apostle wrote these words he must have vividly recalled how previously he and Barnabas had told the Jews in Pisidian Antioch, “Since y o u (pl) reject the word of God ... we now turn to the Gentiles.” Subsequently similar words were spoken and actions taken.

But that was not the end of the story. The salvation which thus came to the Gentiles filled some of the hardened Jews with envy. They began to yearn for the peace and joy that had come to the Gentiles who had yielded their hearts and lives to the Savior. Result: some of these Jews were now also gathered into the fold, thereby proving that they too had been elected from eternity. Now if even Israel’s spiritual defeat had brought riches to the Gentiles, as had actually occurred, was occurring, and was going to occur, then surely Israel’s arrival at full strength—the salvation, during the course of the centuries of the full number of Israelites destined for life everlasting—would progressively result in an abundance of blessings for the entire world.

That Paul, in saying these things, is not thinking of what will take place at history’s close, but of what has been happening and is occurring right along, is clear from verses 13, 14, “Inasmuch as I am an apostle to (the) Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry, in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.”

For the Israelites who had previously experienced God’s punishment the consciousness that they are now accepted by God and are a blessing to mankind amounted to nothing less than “life from the dead.”

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#42223 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:52 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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I see no indication in Scripture of the physical nation of Israel ever "replacing" the church. What Scripture indicates is that the church has rather been extended beyond the physical nation of Israel to include Gentiles as well. This is irrevocable, and Jesus Himself promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.


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I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#42224 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:14 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: Pilgrim]  
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I read your post, I actually have the Hendrickson commentary set. He still doesn't deal with some other verses and prophecies in scripture. It is easy to say the church replaced Israel, and then fit everything into that statement, but the church hasn't replaced Israel in the overall scheme of things. Remember, I'm talking about God taking a people and choosing them to glorify Himself, can He not do that to Israel once again? Would that not make the nations take notice? I believe Deut. 30:1-8 is a point in fact.

Quote
NASB Deut. 30:1-8
30:1 “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you,2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,3 then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.4 “If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.5 “And the Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.7 “And the Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.8 “And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.


OR

Quote
NASB Ezekiel 36:17-38
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.18 “Therefore, I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.19 “Also I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.20 “When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.’21 “But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.22 “Therefore, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.23 “And I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.24 “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.27 “And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.28 “And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.


My point is, that I do not believe God is through with the Israelite nation yet. There are additional verses that could be mentioned but these show why I say this. We end up making the same mistake that they made if we think that we stand without any outward change taking place in the church. Rom. 11:18. The church is asleep just as Israel was, and I believe trouble is on its way. Does that mean we lose salvation? of course not, but we can definitely lose our privileged position as bearers of the gospel. Also, I'm not saying all the church is asleep, but I believe the majority of it is, as I mentioned in my first post, how many truly HOLY people do you know? Not the declaration of holy, but LIVING holy lives!

As for the gates of Hell not prevailing against His church, that is a different point, speaking of the church losing their salvation, the true church is forever in the hand of Christ.

Last edited by hisalone; Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:23 PM.

Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#42225 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:32 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Originally Posted by hisalone
I read your post, I actually have the Hendrickson commentary set. He still doesn't deal with some other verses and prophecies in scripture. It is easy to say the church replaced Israel, and then fit everything into that statement, but the church hasn't replaced Israel in the overall scheme of things. Remember, I'm talking about God taking a people and choosing them to glorify Himself, can He not do that to Israel once again?

Oops... I think I'm going to bow out of this thread too for various reasons! rofl

1)Hendriksen in other writings does deal with this issue but I'm not able to reproduce them all. wink However, you might want to peruse what I do have online here: Eschatology - The Doctrine of Last Things.

2) I certainly don't hold to anything even remotely associated with "the church has replaced Israel". nope The physical nation of Israel was a "vehicle" to serve God's several purposes and WITHIN Israel the Church lived, beginning with Adam & Eve, Seth, etc... The NT focus is now upon the Church which is gathered from the four corners of the earth (new universality and greater spirituality). Israel is GONE... gone... and ever shall be gone! It is the Kingdom of God that is here and is being furthered through the preaching of the Gospel. Like Paul I yearn to see many Jews converted to the Messiah, Jesus Christ. But the nation, IMHO is no longer part of the plan. grin

3) Can God do anything He wants? Of course He can. But what He isn't going to do is to contradict what He has already revealed He is going to do. And in case you haven't figured it out by now I'll briefly say it again... There is nothing I have read anywhere in Scripture that would teach that the nation of Israel is going to be re-established as the "people of God", i.e., a setting up once again of a Theocracy here on earth in contradistinction to the world and/or the Church.

In His grace,


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#42226 - Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:02 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: Pilgrim]  
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laugh I didn't mean to imply I read all of Hendrickson, I don't think I could stomach that. I just meant you gave a summary, and I could look further. I'm not saying there will be a Theocracy, you are misunderstanding my point, they will still be part of the church body, but they will have the preeminent place at the end of this age.

You mentioned that it is my "observation" about what I believe about the church, but to not recognize how dead it is becoming is spiritual blindness, the church is slowly fading as a force in the world. Yes, there is a remnant, but it isn't to be found in most modern day "churches". I honestly can't tell if someone is saved or not because their lives are not much different than the world's. I believe the church today takes too much liberty substituting Israel with the church when reading scripture. God still speaks to both separately, His work with the nation not yet finished. I want to spend more time looking through the prophecies directed to the "nation" of Israel, but from what I have been reading so far, I believe we err to believe that Israel is GONE, gone and shall be gone as you say. I believe we are in for a big surprise, but isn't that how our Great God works? I didn't read your link, must run, but I'll check back.



Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#42231 - Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:43 AM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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Robin Offline
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It helps me to think of it like this: The Church - both visible and invisible - has gone by different names in different times. It was once called Israel (and Judah), the nation being the visible church containing most of the invisible church.

Jesus' work hugely multiplied the scope of the Church by extending it beyond the national and/or genetic borders of Israel, and under His administration we call it "the Church." At no time did one "replace" the other in any sense.


#42232 - Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:35 AM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: Robin]  
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Hi Robin,

I don't think I'm expressing myself very well. All I'm trying to say is that I believe the people known as the Israelites or Jewish people living in Israel are going to have a "revival" in the last days, where many will have the veil removed from their eyes and they will see Christ for who He is (see Jer. quote below). When this happens, the hub of Christianity will return to Jerusalem from where it began. Many of the prophecies in the O.T. concerning the Jewish people were only partially fulfilled, there is coming a greater fulfillment in the last days. All I'm saying, we have cast the Jewish nation off as though God no longer has a plan for them nationally which I believe is wrong. God is still gathering the Jewish people from the 4 corners of the earth, and when they (the elect Jews) are finally gathered in, there will be a time of great revival, when many living in Israel will see the truth of who Christ is.

Quote
NASB Jer. 31:1-14
31:1 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”2 Thus says the Lord,“The people who survived the sword Found grace in the wilderness—Israel, when it went to find its rest.”3 The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love;Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.4 “Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,O virgin of Israel!Again you shall take up your tambourines,And go forth to the dances of the merrymakers.5 “Again you shall plant vineyards On the hills of Samaria;The planters shall plant And shall enjoy them.6 “For there shall be a day when watchmen On the hills of Ephraim shall call out, ‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,To the Lord our God.’”7 For thus says the Lord, “Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob,And shout among the chiefs of the nations;Proclaim, give praise, and say, ‘O Lord, save Thy people,The remnant of Israel.’8 “Behold, I am bringing them from the north country,And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth,Among them the blind and the lame,The woman with child and she who is in labor with child, together;A great company, they shall return here.9 “With weeping they shall come,And by supplication I will lead them;I will make them walk by streams of waters,On a straight path in which they shall not stumble;For I am a father to Israel,And Ephraim is My first-born.”10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,And declare in the coastlands afar off,And say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him,And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.”11 For the Lord has ransomed Jacob,And redeemed him from the hand of him who was stronger than he.12 “And they shall come and shout for joy on the height of Zion,And they shall be radiant over the bounty of the Lord—Over the grain, and the new wine, and the oil,And over the young of the flock and the herd;And their life shall be like a watered garden,And they shall never languish again.13 “Then the virgin shall rejoice in the dance,And the young men and the old, together,For I will turn their mourning into joy,And will comfort them, and give them joy for their sorrow.14 “And I will fill the soul of the priests with abundance,And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness,” declares the Lord.


My point is, that we must not think God is finished with Israel, they still have a place in God's plan in spite of the importance we put on the "gentile" church. I fear we are being arrogant toward the branches when we say Israel is gone, who are we to determine what God will do? it is arrogance to determine that God no longer has a place for Israel, they can surely be grafted back in. Rom. 11:18-21 When we read prophecy, we must allow for the possiblity that Israel will again take a prominent role in God's plan. I believe it is the truth of scripture, the prophecies coming to fulfillement even now. There are many prophecies in scripture that testify to the truth of this. We need to heed scripture and get rid of our preconceived notions. I disagree with Pilgrim about the state of the church, it is most surely dying, the church is living in deception, it has lost its moorings and is doing everything but what it should be doing. Just like Israel, the church believes they are okay when in fact, they are more and more becoming a disobedient and hardened people. Does that mean all the church, no, but I believe the majority of the church is living in sin and compromise.

Quote
Rom. 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in;


Note: read this verse carefully, it is a warning as well as instructive concerning the last days.


Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#42233 - Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:05 AM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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hisalone,

1) I don't have a clue as to what "preconceived notions" you are referring to... NONE here!

2) I never said the state of the VISIBLE church was anything but miserable. It is the TRUE Church within the visible church that is being increased according to God's perfect plan. In fact, it is clearly written that in the last days, which could last another 5000 years????, things will become increasingly worse and if it wasn't for Christ returning, even the elect could be seduced and stray due to false teachers, etc. (Mk 13:22). Thus while some think this is unwarranted pessimism, it is actually a realistic and biblical view which also has a large measure of optimism since Christ's Church will be and is victorious.

3) This idea of "partially fulfilled prophecies re: Israel" is so typical and is the foundation of sand upon which myriads base their hope of a future prominence of Israel. A book I would highly recommend for your edification and serious thought is: The Once and Future Israel, by R.B. Yerby. The author deals with most all of the "popular" prophecies used to support this idea and shows them to be misunderstood, twisted out of context, their actual fulfillment etc. [Linked Image]

Over and out! [Linked Image]


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#42234 - Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:18 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: Pilgrim]  
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I, too, agree that the visible church - the church as we see it - is waning and giving way to corruption, compromise, and apostasy. It is the invisible church - the true Church, as God sees her - that will gain purity and faith (persecution historically has always had this effect on the true Church) as time goes on. While the true (invisible) church may remain a small remnant, over the centuries it has become a vast multitude! All the elect of God who are alive today are added to those who have gone before us and those to come after.Perhaps a tiny number at any given time, but gathered from across the centuries, an innumerable kingdom!

Do I see Jerusalem become the "capitol city of planet Earth" someday? No way. His kingdom is not of this world! I do not share the Post-millennialist's (nor the "Dispie" Premillennialist's) dreams of a Jewish kingdom ruling the whole world.

And consider this: In order for a Jew to be saved he or she must convert to Christianity, and the two religions do not even worship the same God, contrary to popular belief. I have a Baptist acquaintance who asked a hospital chaplain who was a Jewish Rabbi to pray for him prior to surgery. "After all," my Baptist friend quipped, "We both worship the same God, don't we?"

Not at all. We Christians worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth as God, do we not? We worship the Triune God of the Bible; Father Son, and Holy Spirit. They do not. They do not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the one true and living God as we do. Their god does not exist!

In my Dispie Premil days I was taught that Christ Himself would someday preside over restored animal sacrifices in a rebuilt permanent temple in Jerusalem, capitol city of planet Earth! I can think of nothing that would be more offensive to the Lamb of God, than to preside over Jewish animal sacrifice! It would be like saying He didn't do quite a good enough job on the cross to atone for all the sins of His people, but these sacrifices will "make up for the shortfall."

Does God have a special plan for the nation of Israel? Sure. And one for France, and Iceland, and Papua, New Guinea too. None are pre-eminent. Will there be a national repentance in Israel towards the true God? I'd love to think so. I hope the Postmillennialists are right about that, and I pray that Israel - and every other nation on Earth - will experience national, global revival.


#42236 - Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:45 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
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hisalone quoted: Rom. 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Does Hendrikson say anything specific about this particular verse?

My first thoughts (may be all wet?) about this verse are the words "has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;"
The words "come in" make me ask the question: what have the Gentiles come in to?
In previous verses leading up to verse 25, it talks about the natural branches being Israel. The Gentiles then are not natural branches, but both are grafted into the olive tree.
But I think the most important factor is the thing that both Israel and the Gentiles are grafted into. I think it is safe to say that the olive tree here is God's true children, otherwise known as the Church.
But what do the words: "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;"?
"Until" would seem to indicate that something is to follow and in verse 26 seems to give us the answer to this. "And so all of Israel will be saved:"
Obviously not all of the Israel of the flesh will be saved, so it must be talking about spiritual Israel. I think this is backed up by Romans 9:6-8.
It would appear then that one day when the full measure of the Gentiles has come in, then the rest of elect Israel will be saved.
However I think Galatians chapter three has a lot to add about this subject. Verse 16 says "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not. And to seeds, as of many; but as of one. And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Move on down to verses 28-29 we read: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Christ's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Before the Gentiles started to be grafted into the olive tree, the Church mainly consisted of the Jews, now the Church consists of both elect Jews and Gentiles.
Both are saved the same way.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 PM.
#42237 - Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:07 AM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: Tom]  
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hisalone Offline
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hisalone  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Eastern Maryland
Hi Tom,

I agree with your assessment of Rom. 11:25. The church is made up of both Gentiles and Jews (which is all Israel). It isn't that the church is going to change, it is and always will be the body of Christ made up of all nations, all saved souls where race, sex, location or any other separation is looking at the church carnally. That said, what I believe is going to happen in the end is that the nation Israel will once again become the hub of Christianity, still the same church, only the focus of what God is doing, glorifying Himself, returning to where it all began, Jerusalem.

I also believe 2 Peter chapter 2 is speaking about the visible church (consisting of wheat and tares) as we see it in America today (who is saved and who isn't I can't say, only God sees the heart, but it is very, very difficult to differentiate the lost from the saved), It has mostly become a place where the gospel has been corrupted with the ideas and traditions of man. Why? mostly to fill the pews in order to get rich. The majority don't teach true doctrine, because they fear people might leave, believing there is a need to entertain to get the "world saved", bring the lost into the church. It has become a business. We read in 2 Peter chapter 2:
Quote
NASB
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

I believe that is a warning to the church as we know it today. Because of the failures of those who are our pastors and leaders in the church (reminds me of how Israel ended), the mantle, so to speak is going to be given back to the nation of Israel. Not returning to Judaism, but the veil removed from the elect Jews where they recognize Christ as their saviour, a revival and a fulfillment of the prophecies given in the Word of God concerning the Israel still not fully realized. I am not saying there will not be any more "gentile" conversions, I'm saying the focus of God's power and strength will be returned to the nation one last time before the judgment.

I really do not see where this is hard to see or believe. We have seen revivals in different areas of the country throughout history where God glorified Himself in a mighty way, this is what I believe is going to happen in Israel, a reviving, an unveiling for the ethnic Jews. This will eventually lead to to the final prophecies spoken of in scripture to be fulfilled concerning the end times.


Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
#42405 - Tue May 05, 2009 3:02 PM Re: Israel being cut off [Re: hisalone]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 151
Relztrah Offline
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Relztrah  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 151
Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted by hisalone
I believe that is a warning to the church as we know it today. Because of the failures of those who are our pastors and leaders in the church (reminds me of how Israel ended), the mantle, so to speak is going to be given back to the nation of Israel. Not returning to Judaism, but the veil removed from the elect Jews where they recognize Christ as their saviour, a revival and a fulfillment of the prophecies given in the Word of God concerning the Israel still not fully realized. I am not saying there will not be any more "gentile" conversions, I'm saying the focus of God's power and strength will be returned to the nation one last time before the judgment.


Please help me understand your point. Is this a position you have arrived at from your study of the Scriptures or is it your opinion?


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