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Re: True Worship ??? #4265
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:23 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:23 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
In reply to:How should the food be presented? The packaging doesn't necessarily matter so much if what we are doing is Biblical.quote>

I believe that this issue has already been discussed on the Forum somewhere but it always intrigues me to read such statements. Are you suggesting that God's will, as revealed in His Word has no interest or direction in regard to the "package" but only the contents? Let's take an extreme example of this logic so that it may be seen how erroneous it really is:

According to this type or reasoning, not that YOU personally are advocating any such thing, it would be perfectly acceptable for prostitutes to present the gospel to their clients after providing their "services". Doubtless you are shrinking back from even the mere suggestion of such a thing. But that only serves to prove the point that the "package" is not exempt from biblical teaching and scrutiny. It is not acceptable, in fact I will say even sinful, to mix and then baptize the things of this world with the things of God. That God may use such admixtures is not to be taken as license to do so. The issue is what man is responsible to do according to the objective revealed will of God and not what works, i.e., pragmatism: aka: "The end justifies the means."

In His Grace,


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Re: True Worship ??? [Re: Pilgrim] #4266
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:52 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:52 PM
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Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

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In reply to:"All men become like the objects of their worship. Our inward character is being silently moulded by our view of God and our conception of him. Christian character is the fruit of Christian worship; pagan character the fruit of pagan religion; semi-Christian character the fruit of a half-true understanding of God. The principle holds good for us all: we become like what we worship ­ for worse or for better. 'They that make them are like unto them' (Psa. 115:8)." — Maurice Roberts
That quote reminded me of another, loosely related (at least in my mind) quote:
Quote
In reply to: God's hearing of our prayers doth not depend upon sanctification, but upon Christ's intercession; not upon what we are in ourselves, but what' we are in the Lord Jesus; both our persons and our prayers are acceptable in the beloved [Eph 1.6]. Thomas Brookes

And turns my thoughts in this direction, although I struggle to express my thoughts:
Our worship is related to our ongoing sanctification and Christian development, but ultimately our sanctification and eventual perseverence and glorification is dependent upon Christ's intervention/intercession.
Just rambling. . .


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: True Worship ??? [Re: gotribe] #4267
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:53 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:53 PM
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gotribe Offline

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IOW, is our worship only pleasing to God when it is instigated and directed by Christ apart from our own efforts?


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: True Worship ??? [Re: Pilgrim] #4268
Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:14 PM
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I see what you and Joe are saying in reguards to the package thing. And yeah I do remember it being discussed in another thread somewhere. And I don't mean it like it looks. What I mean is, more or less, that we shouldn't try to package it ourselves. We shouldn't be trying to make it fit what we want. If we are doing that which is Biblical, than we won't have to worry about the package because we will already have the package there and the food therein as well.<br><br>I hope that makes sense...

Re: True Worship ??? [Re: gotribe] #4269
Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:47 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:47 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
In reply to:]IOW, is our worship only pleasing to God when it is instigated and directed by Christ apart from our own efforts?
It would be an unfortunate mistake to minimize our responsibilities to offer proper worship, as it is likewise in our sanctification by putting too much emphasis upon God's sovereignty, whether it be in Christ's intercession for the saints, etc. We must guard against slighting either God's sovereignty, which leads to pride or slighting our obedience, love, faith, et al which obfuscates our responsibility to live in righteousness and holiness. Paul's words to the Philippians is most applicable here:
Quote
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure."
In His Grace,


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Re: True Worship ??? [Re: J_Edwards] #4270
Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:48 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:48 PM
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Northwest Indiana, USA
Wes Offline
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Joe,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Proper, True, Biblical Worship in the Church:<br><br>What is it? <br>Have you experienced it?<br>Are you experiencing now in your church?<br>What does it REALLY look like?</font><hr></blockquote><p>In his message about The Teaching of Jesus on Worship” Brian Schwertley wrote:<br><blockquote>Worship must be kept under the constant, close scrutiny of Scripture. If it is not and people keep adding their own traditions to the worship of God generation after generation then they may find themselves persecuting the true people of God. <br><br><br>(3) The true worship of God is central to the Great Commission. The modern Christian reconstruction movement (generally speaking) ignores the importance of a restoration of biblical worship in the progressive sanctification of cultures and nations under the dominion mandate. People are saved not merely to apply the second table of the law to themselves, their families and society. God also is calling out a people to worship Him in the manner that He has appointed. Unfortunately, the same reconstructionists who condemn human autonomy in ethics, who call upon the state to restrain itself to its divinely appointed task are champions of human autonomy in worship. Most reconstructionist leaders (because of their love of human traditions in worship and their unbiblical pragmatism) do not build upon and advocate the Reformed creeds and confessions but rather go back to the early ecumenical creeds only. This policy is an explicit rejection of the corporate sanctification of the church in history. If there is to be godly dominion in society there first must be a love and respect for the first table of the law. Interestingly, when we read God’s perspective on history in the books of the Kings and Chronicles, we see not only an obsession on the Holy Spirit’s part for the purity of worship in the nation of Israel; but also a direct correlation between the national corruption of worship and the abandonment of the whole law of God. Worship must receive top priority in the discipleship of the nations.<br><br>(4) Once we understand the importance of worship in Spirit and in truth, a top priority in choosing a church to attend should be biblical worship. When many people decide to choose a church today they often choose a church for the wrong reason. (For example, my friends and business contacts go there; it’s the closest to my house; they have a good youth program; the worship service is fun and exciting; the pastor tells great jokes.) If God is seeking people to worship Him only as He has commanded in His word, then it is our moral duty to reject the syncretism in worship that is so common in churches today. Biblical worship and scriptural preaching take priority over social, entertainment and business concerns. The local church is not a social club. It is a place where God’s people worship and fellowship with Christ in a special manner. Public worship is the closest thing to heaven itself.<br><br>May God enable us to worship Him in a manner that glorifies His name.</blockquote>Jesus said, “…the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (Jn. 4:19-24). <br><br>Now to answer your questions about experiencing worship. I think you need to be very careful in how you describe worship. Some people today use the term "worship experience" in the same way an athlete measures a "good workout" or a amusement park patron measures a "good ride" on a roller coaster. They are essentiallly asking "did it feel good?" True Biblical worship is intended to be focused on the object of our worship not the experience of the worshiper. When we attend a church worship service we should be focused on giving to God all the glory and honor due to Him. So we want to worship Him in a way that pleases Him not us. We should be consumed with a desire to give Him everything we have out of gratitude for His love to us in Christ Jesus. So when we worship it should resemble our love for God and not so much our desire to be blessed. <br><br>Wes<br>


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: True Worship ??? [Re: Pilgrim] #4271
Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:00 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:00 PM
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Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

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Thank you for your admonition, Pilgrim. I did not mean to suggest that; just exploring the relationship between our "efforts" and Christ's intercession.


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: True Worship ??? [Re: gotribe] #4272
Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:15 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:15 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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gotribe,
I didn't intend my reply to be a personal admonition but one in general. Doubtless, without Christ's intercession, we would be people most miserable and helpless to do that which is right. Included in His intercession is His sending of the Spirit to dwell within us and Who leads us into all truth and right practice. There is a decided lop-sidedness which permeates beyond the Charismagic circles which is often voiced as "Let go and let God!" Calvinism has also suffered from the opposite error which is sometimes phrased as, "If God wants to save the heathen, then He will without our help!" (aka: hyper-Calvinism). Thus, my intent was to stress the dual truths of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Knowing that Christ intercedes in our behalf should not be used as an excuse for practicing biblical worship but rather an encouragement and source of strength in doing it.
In His Grace,


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Re: True Worship ??? [Re: J_Edwards] #4273
Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:39 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:39 PM
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Lenexa, Kansas
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Joe:<br><br>In his book, the “Fine Art of Public Worship”, Andrew Blackwood starts out by saying, “Worship is man’s response to God’s revelation of Himself.” He should respond in these four ways as Isaiah did.(Isa 6:1-8)<br>First there ought to be a sense of awe and wonder in the presence of the holy God. Holy, Holy Holy.<br> <br> I can remember growing up in church- - -my Dad was a Presbyterian Pastor and he insisted that when one entered the sanctuary- - -there was no talking and visiting –but worship had begun upon entering and one was in prayerful contemplation and meditation. Worship began with the organ prelude. Quite unlike the church my wife and I attend now where the visiting is interupted when the music leader straps on his guitar and begins worship by singing all the modern day choruses for the first 20 minutes. The following was actually on the overhead projector this last Sunday listing the same line at least ten times: “I could sing of your love forever” . At the end of the 10th line in parentheses was- -[color:red]“(repeat)”</font color=red>.<br><br>Second, Blackwood says - -“there is confession of sin, both personal and corporate.” Most churches still incorporate a “Pastoral Prayer” of some sort.<br>Third he states- - -“there is the experience of God’s cleansing and redeeming grace”. Most churches have a time for this in the preaching of the Word.<br>Fourth- -“there is the dedication of heart and life to God for service among men.” This should be a time for application and response to God for what He has impressed upon our hearts through the preaching.<br><br>I sense a movement, perhaps nationally, to get back to meaningful worship services where we gather to emphasize what we GIVE to God on Sunday rather than what we GET. I would sincerely pray that "With Reverence and Awe, we might Return to the Basics of Reformed Worship" True biblical worship, it seems, depends on good and dedicated leadership. Sounds like you have a great opportunity in Florida, Joe. We need you in KC!<br><br><br>

Re: True Worship ??? [Re: gotribe] #4274
Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:47 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:47 PM
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USA
J_Edwards Offline OP
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Pilgrim answered your question, but I think this would be a good place to interject that none of us have "completely" experienced corporate worship the way it could be "fully" experienced, that is this side of glory.<br><br>The point has been made here several times that individual worship (IW, i.e. sanctification, et. al.) needs to be to its fullest experience in EACH individual saint in a corporate situation for the "whole experience" of what a corporate worship fully offers. Thus, with the Puritans here, there needs to be more emphasis on sanctification "from" our pulpits and experienced "in" our lives before as a group of believers we can fully understand, experience, and continually have this type of on going fullness of worship. <br><br>Just think of what we have already missed. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/sad.gif" alt="sad" title="sad[/img] But, also think of what lays ahead as we grow in grace and truth. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] <br><br>May God forgive and strengthen us.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: True Worship ??? (A Good Article) [Re: J_Edwards] #4275
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:21 PM
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:21 PM
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West Michigan
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A good article right on The Highway Website<br><br>http://www.the-highway.com/worship_Godfrey.html<br><br>


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Re: True Worship ??? [Re: DaveVan3] #4276
Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:38 AM
Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:38 AM

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I don't know if our reverence in the "sanctuary" is part of worship but I will say I have wondered about that. I attend a PCA church and we meet in a Middle School auditorium. Before church the kids are running up and down the aisles, onto the stage and laughing screaming, etc. I have on many occasions made them stop and go out into the other area. Most parents don't get it. They don't necessarily want their children to do something to give them a bad reputation but they don't understand how to teach godly character. The straw that broke the camels back was to see the kids devouring the bread we had just used for the Lord's table. They have stopped that, but only after I complained about it. The kids were standing around pulling of the pieces shoving it into their mouths. I don't believe that is the Lord's true body, but I don't think it teaches the kids much to allow them to have the Lord's table and then shove the leftovers down their throat!<br><br>So I would love to know what true worship is. Probably the closest I have ever come to it is when years ago we came into the Doctrines of Grace and we met in a home.

Re: True Worship ??? [Re: Pilgrim] #4277
Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:49 AM
Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:49 AM

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Pilgrim<br>That is a good call to remember that we are not to forget our responsibility. We are so prone to take the pendulum and swing it to either side. I attend a church now that seems to have swung the pendulum to the cause of Christian liberty so much that holiness is just a word. Thanks for the reminder

Re: True Worship ??? [Re: Pilgrim] #4278
Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:11 AM
Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:11 AM

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Pilgrim<br>This may not be the place, and it may have already been discussed, so please forgive me if I can find this information in another place. Being the old fashioned woman that I am, I find it hard to understand they thoughts on how we are to relate to our culture. I love the old hymns, and have suffered through many of the new tunes to those hymns(although there are some I like better) I don't always feel right about the form of worship I see......drama, raging drums, pastors wearing sandals and socks. I don't in any way want to be a legalist(I am certain most of you by now are saying it's too late for that sister) but I don't know the balance of speaking to the culture without being a part of the culture. Does that question make sense? Most of our kids are taught to enjoy life, as opposed to bearing the yoke in their youth. Our churches are filled with so many programs to keep up with the culture. Maybe you can pull the questions out of this, as I am just as confused at the questions as I am the answers. I miss the day of true conversations on spritual things and talking about the truths of the word. I can't seem to even get my pastor to answer questions on some doctrinal issues. I have to depend on this board, for which I am eternally grateful.

Re: True Worship ??? [Re: J_Edwards] #4279
Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:15 AM
Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:15 AM

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Joe<br>This may be another thread, but why does one stay and worship in a particular church. Do we stay to be light and salt, do we stay to minister, or do we stay because we are getting what we need? In a situation where it is evident God has called you, at least for a time, how do we know when we need to go elsewhere? Do we ever stay not so much that we might be edified or exhorted, but rather that we see a need of some really sound doctrinal truths in order that we may be the light and salt?<br><br>Linda

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