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How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? #42783
Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:46 PM
Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:46 PM
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Pilgrim Offline OP

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I thought this would be a good topic for discussion. The question is: "How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God?" scratchchin


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Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Pilgrim] #42784
Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:06 PM
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Fulfilled prophecy in history, accounts of eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection gladly accepting martyrdom rather than recant their testimony...

but ultimately I know the Scriptures to be God's own infallible and inerrant word because He has regenerated my soul. Without such regeneration, despite the overwhelming historical and visible evidence, it would still be foolishness to me.

-Robin

Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Pilgrim] #42789
Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:15 AM
Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:15 AM
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Pilgrim,

The Westminster Confession (Ch. 1, sect. 5) gives, I think, a helpful answer:

Quote
We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.


It seems to come down to this, in effect: the Scriptures proclaim themselves to be the Word of God. If we are not persuaded by this self-attestation (which persuasion is the fruit of the Spirit's work), no mere man can possibly persuade us. How can man's testimony, hampered by his own finitude & fallibility, convince us if God's own testimony won't?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Pilgrim] #42791
Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:18 PM
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The question in the first person plural - How do WE know the Scriptures are the Word of God? There is a corporate aspect to determining the extent of the Scriptural canon - the list of inspired books. The early Church was infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit through a long and tedious process to discover the extent and limits of the canon of Scripture. As a new Christian I began reading a Bible containing 66 individual books. I did not need to scrutinize and evaluate hundreds of ancient books to determine where I could hear God speaking. Nor do I look now for new additions from modern literature to supplement the collection of inspired books. The process of evaluating and adopting the canon of Scripture is complete. I'm glad that this is the case because as a fallible individual, left to myself, I would likely err in excluding or including some specific writing. The Westminster Confession which lays out the criteria for determining inspiration, also specifies the list of 66 books which the apostolic Church had recognized as God's Word. In the 16th & 17th centuries the big issue was the inspiration of the apocryphal books. The Medieval Church had erred in regarding them as inspired. The Reformation Church rejected their inspiration, as did the Early Church. To conclude, a wonderful and fascinating process took place in the first Christian centuries - The Word of God called the Church into existence and the Church recognized the Word of God.

Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of [Re: BHNick] #42794
Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:08 AM
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How do we know that the Scriptures is the Word of God?
The Scriptures are a particular collection of writings (books) given by inspiration of God. (2 Tim 3:15,16, 2 Peter 1:20)

In various Bible texts, we see that:
Jesus and the apostles refer to the OT mentioning them by name and attests to their authority as the authority of God. (Matthew 5:17, 7:12, 22:40, Luke 16:31).

God commanded men to write His Words. Exodus 17:14 "And Jehovah said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book" Exodus 34:27 "And Jehovah said unto Moses, Write thou these words" Numbers 33:2 "And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of Jehovah" Isaiah 8:1 "And Jehovah said unto me, Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it with the pen of a man" Isaiah 30:8 "Now go, write it before them on a tablet, and inscribe it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever." Jeremiah 25:13 " And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book" Jeremiah 30:2 "Thus speaketh Jehovah, the God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book." Ezekiel 24:1 " the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying" 24:3 "And utter a parable unto the rebellious house, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah" Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Hebrews 2:2-3 "For if the word spoken through angels proved stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard" Isaiah refers to what he wrote as the book of the Jehovah: Isaiah 34:16 "Seek ye out of the book of Jehovah" Much of the NT quotes from the OT i.e. Matthew 15:4-7, Hebrews 1:5, 3:7, 4:3, 5:6, 7:21.

The Apostle Paul spoke of his words being from the Holy Spirit: I Corinthians 2:13, and Christ as speaking through him: 2 Corinthians 13:3, Writing to the Thessalonians, he says it is the word of God I Thessalonians 2:13.

The apostles refer to each others writings as having Scriptural authority i.e. Hebrews, Peter. Hebrews 1:1-3 "God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

God commanded the very words that were to be written: Exodus 3, 4, 6:2, 7:1, 12:1, Leviticus 4:1, 6:1, 24, 7:22, 28; Joshua 1:1; 4:1; 5:2,

God put His Word into their mouth: Jer 1:9; Ezekial 3:4, 10, 11.

Authority used: Matthew 22:43-45; John 10:35; Galatians 3:16

Scripture is a perfect guide for all of life, sufficient for the moral and spiritual needs of people: Psalms 19:7 "The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes." Psalms 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path." Psalms 119:130-131 "The opening of thy words giveth light; It giveth understanding unto the simple. I opened wide my mouth, and panted; For I longed for thy commandments."

From the Easton Dictionary on Sword Searcher
Scripture: invariably in the New Testament denotes that definite collection of sacred books, regarded as given by inspiration of God, which we usually call the Old Testament (2Ti 3:15-16; Joh 20:9; Ga 3:22; 2Pe 1:20). It was God's purpose thus to perpetuate his revealed will. From time to time he raised up men to commit to writing in an infallible record the revelation he gave. The "Scripture," or collection of sacred writings, was thus enlarged from time to time as God saw necessary. We have now a completed "Scripture," consisting of the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament canon in the time of our Lord was precisely the same as that which we now possess under that name. He placed the seal of his own authority on this collection of writings, as all equally given by inspiration (Mt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; Luke 16:29,31).

By this we believe that God has, by the plenary, verbal inspiration of the Scriptures, provided us with His Holy Word.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth."
ASV used throughout.


The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Pilgrim] #42797
Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:49 AM
Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:49 AM
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May I take this onto another path.

Briefly in answering the thread question, the self-attestation that Scripture is the Word of God (Jesus, Paul, etc).

The path I have in mind is this. Is it reasonable for Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and Scripture not to be the Word of God? I say 'no'. If Scripture is untrustworthy, then how can we have any assurance that Jesus is who He say He is.

Taking it one step further, do we need to accept that Scripture is authorative, infallible and inerrant? I say 'yes'. Yet their are those who are partial inerrantists who will argue otherwise. I just don't understand their logic, and especially the need for them to take that position. I tend to think it has to do with their holding more to a man-made God in that they may belief in a God kinda like the one in the Bible, but not the God revealed in the Bible. They are probably more Deists than Christian; however, I am sure their are Christians who take the partial inerrantists position.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: John_C] #42888
Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:20 PM
Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:20 PM
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Quote
***I am sure their are Christians who take the partial inerrantists position.***


God holds His Word above His own name. Psalm 138:2

Or, hmmm, maybe He doesn't!?!?!

John 17:17 Thy Word is Truth

Or, maybe it isn't, hmmm, I dunno!?!?!

See the problem?

A person who says His Word may not be true, is not a Christian.

When he reads, 2Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

or he reads,

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

or,

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

he will become his own authority, whether these things be true.

But rather, the Word of God is the Authority

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

God's Word is either all true, or none of it is, and people who believe God, search the Scriptures, and God calls them noble.

Last edited by Craig1x; Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:41 PM.
Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Craig1x] #42890
Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:16 PM
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How do we know when words are NOT Scripture?

Same way, the Holy Spirit.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the English language.

Grasped
GR`ASPED, pp. Seized with the hands or arms, embraced; held; possessed.

Is Jesus Christ God?

Has He ever not been God?

In it's marvelous economy of words, Scripture answers both questions - John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

He is God, and He always has been God.

Is a black man, a man?

The black man who, although he existed in the form of a man, did not regard equality with a white man a thing to be grasped

This is a false statement, and a false assumption, by the black man. Whether the black man means equality with the white man, can't be reached for, or can't be held on to, it is false.

Is Jesus Christ God?

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

This is a false statement.

Of course, Jesus Christ never thought such a thing, nor did the Holy Spirit inspire such a statement.

Using any definition of grasped, "Seized, embraced, held, or possessed, the statement is false.

John 17:17 thy word is truth

Thus, it is not Scripture.

The SUBJECT of that errant statement is a non issue, John 8:58 is true, He IS GOD, He need not REACH for, nor HOLD ON TO equality with God. HE COULD NOT RID HIMSELF OF EQUALITY WITH GOD! Taking on the form of a servant, could NOT CHANGE His equality with God!

John 10:30 I and my Father are one - they picked up stones to kill Him, they knew He was saying, "I am EQUAL with God."

Nor could the black man rid himself of equality with a white man.

Jesus KNOWS that His equality with God, takes nothing from God.

That is what He wanted men to KNOW!

The Words that state that, are Scripture.



Last edited by Craig1x; Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:32 PM.
Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Craig1x] #42891
Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:20 PM
Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:20 PM
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Pilgrim Offline OP

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Pilgrim  Offline OP

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Originally Posted by Craig1x
Is Jesus Christ God?

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

This is a false statement.

Of course, Jesus Christ never thought such a thing, nor did the Holy Spirit inspire such a statement.

Using any definition of grasped, "Seized, embraced, held, or possessed, the statement is false.

John 17:17 thy word is truth

Thus, it is not Scripture.

The SUBJECT of that errant statement is a non issue, John 8:58 is true, He IS GOD, He need not REACH for, nor HOLD ON TO equality with God. HE COULD NOT RID HIMSELF OF EQUALITY WITH GOD! Taking on the form of a servant, could NOT CHANGE His equality with God!

John 10:30 I and my Father are one - they picked up stones to kill Him, they knew He was saying, "I am EQUAL with God."

Nor could the black man rid himself of equality with a white man.

Jesus KNOWS that His equality with God, takes nothing from God.

That is what He wanted men to KNOW!

The Words that state that, are Scripture.

First... Welcome to the Discussion Board. grin

Secondly, I am unfortunately confused by your statement above. confused

A more literal translation of the Greek of Phil 2:6 would be:

who, though existing in the form of God, did not count his existence-in-a-manner-equal-to-God something to cling to

The ASV (1901) also renders this text much in the same way:

who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

The rendering of harpagmos as the two examples above is more than legitimate as can be seen from Arndt, Baur and Gingrich, p. 108 2a, and attested to by many reliable Greek scholars and commentators, e.g., Wm. B. Hendriksen (cf. NT Commentary - Philippians, pp. 103, 129 {footnote #87}).

An explanation of why this is to be preferred can be offered if necessary.

Thirdly, what is most confusing is whether you are simply taking issue with the word harpagmos, translated as "grasped", OR if you are disputing that Phil. 2:6 is inspired and should be disregarded as a true statement. The same question arises in regard to Joh 17:17, "Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth". You wrote: "Thus, it is not Scripture." What is not Scripture? Is this referring to Phil 2:6? the translation of harpagmos as "grasped"? or the Jh 17:17b "thy word is truth"? And/or are you attempting to defend a "partial inerrancy" view? dizzy

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is struggling with what you wrote and who would really like to have an explanation so that we can rightly understand you. BigThumbUp

In His grace,


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Re: How do we know the Scriptures are the Word of God? [Re: Pilgrim] #42896
Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:23 PM
Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:23 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Online content
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You are correct Pilgrim that you are not the only one who is confused.

Tom

"not if there is one error in it, Jesus" [Re: Tom] #42902
Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:59 PM
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Bob says there is an error,

Bob calls Jesus Christ a liar.

Do you?

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:18 ForG1063 verilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 TillG2193 heavenG3772 andG2532 earthG1093 pass,G3928 oneG1520 jotG2503 orG2228 oneG3391 tittleG2762 shall in no wiseG3364 passG3928 fromG575 theG3588 law,G3551 tillG2193 allG3956 be fulfilled.G1096

jotG2503 = Of Hebrew origin (the tenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet); "iota", the name of the eighth letter of the Greek alphabet, put (figuratively) for a very small part of anything: - jot.

tittleG2762 =Feminine of a presumed derivative of the base of G2768; something horn like, that is, (specifically) the apex of a Hebrew letter (figuratively the least particle)

The smallest part of...

law,G3551 = law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle)

[including the volume]

The smallest part of the volume, the Book.

Shall not pass away.

If the volume, or Book, of the Word of God, has 1 error, then the error replaces the truth. And the truth, that was there, before the error was there, has passed away.

We believe God created all things, He parted the Red Sea, He raises the dead, etc... But, alas, poor 'God', He hasn't the power to MAINTAIN 800,000 words in the precise way He wishes to!

John 17:17 Thy Word IS Truth.

Well, not if there is one error in it, Jesus.

See the problem, Bob?

This is the most devisive doctrine of all.

If I say there is an error in God's Holy Word, I have called Jesus a liar. Christians do not call Jesus a liar.

They believe what He says, in faith. Then they KNOW that there is one volume, somewhere on this planet, where God has PRESERVED His Holy Word, perfectly.

Psalm 138:2 ...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

His Word = above all thy name, are pure words, thou shalt preserve them .

Cause and Effect

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

What happened there?

They did not know which one God wished to have replace Judas Iscariot. So, they prayed, then they drew lots.

This way GOD CAUSES THEM to draw the lot, HE WANTS THEM TO DRAW.

God has given man free will, (or the stupidity of Calvinism is true), BUT, God has absolute Sovereign rule over creation, ALL of it.

He CAUSED them to draw the lot He wanted them to. They had no say in the matter, and they knew that.

Genesis 20:1 - 6, culminates in this statement by God, "for I also withheld thee (Abimelech) from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. "

He CAUSED Abimelech not to sin against Him. And Abimelech had NO say in the matter.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

God will CAUSEa king to do His will, and the king has no say in the matter.

God does not say, He holds the name of the 12th apostle above His name, nor does He say He holds the prevention of Abimelech's sin above His name, nor does He say, He will turn a king's will whichever way He wishes to because He holds world history above all His name

He holds HIS HOLY WORD above His name!

But men will tell you, that God will not CAUSE men to choose this word, over that word, to PRESERVE HIS HOLY WORD!

Those men lie, God will do what ever He wants to do, to whom ever He wishes to do something to, and NO MAN stays His hand!

To cause a translator to choose this word or that word, over another word, is NOT inspiration, (that has already been done) !

THAT IS PRESERVATION, AND A SOVEREIGN GOD WILL PRESERVE HIS HOLY WORD, ANY WAY HE SEES FIT!

And woe to the man, (the 'Christian'), who says that He won't do that, or that He hasn't done that!

Bob, if we did not stand back and consider the weight of the matter, and see that God places His Word ABOVE His Name, and then, if we did not remember that He is JEALOUS of His name. Then we could simply say, the translators did the best they could, and open the volume that is the translators opinion, of God's Holy Word.

Nobody considers WHO THEY ARE DEALING WITH anymore!

In His Service,

Craig


Re: "not if there is one error in it, Jesus" [Re: Craig1x] #42903
Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:03 PM
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confused

And who is Bob? scratch1

Re: "not if there is one error in it, Jesus" [Re: Craig1x] #42904
Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:37 PM
Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:37 PM
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Pilgrim Offline OP

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Craig,

This is the third post you've made here which is, for all intents and purposes, incomprehensible. In my reply here, I asked if you would please explain what it was you are trying to convey. I also asked you a couple of questions to help clarify some things you wrote.

If you can't or refuse to attempt to make some logical sense of what you are posting here we will have to deduce that you are a [Linked Image] and thus your current posts/replies will be deleted and a warning issued on the basis of the Board Rules, specifically Rules #2 and #4.

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