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#43224 - Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:45 PM Irenaeus on Transubstantiation  
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patricius79 Offline
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St Irenaeus of Lyons circa 189 A.D.:


"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).


#43225 - Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:56 PM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Welcome to the Board! grin

Now... could you explain what the point is for this quote from Irenaeus? I, for one, am a bit confused. shrug

THANKS!

PS. In your profile you list "Jesus" as your hobby. Do you really think that is appropriate? And, if the Lord Christ is really just a hobby to you, then we need to talk. wink


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#43231 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:01 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Thanks for the messages, Pilgrim. about "hobby", I think it said "interests" but I changed it anyway to make peace. Mt 5.9. Sorry for any miscommunication.

About Irenaeus...I trust him as a theologian and I love this quote. I find it interesting that the earliest post-biblical fathers held to transubstantiation.



#43236 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:08 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Originally Posted by patricius79
I find it interesting that the earliest post-biblical fathers held to transubstantiation.

Hmmmmmm scratchchin ... strange but William Webster would disagree and challenge the veracity of your claim that the ECF held to transubstantiation. His refutation and historical proof can be found here: The Eucharist.

Of course, there is also the ex-priest Richard Bennett who wrote this: True and False Worship where he deals with the matter of transubstantiation specifically later in the article; about 2/3's down.


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#43245 - Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:18 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: Pilgrim]  
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The article by Webster is inaccurate since his argument from Justin for example, is very weak. This is because nobody denies that the mystery is a memorial, nor that the bread and wine are common until the consecration, nor that the remnant appearances of bread and wine in some way symbolize Christ.

Here is Justin speaking for himself:

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

#43249 - Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:23 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Justin Martyr writes:

Quote
For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Saviour was make incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh are nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus

“The change of which our body and flesh are nourished” is not a reference to transubstantiation. According to Catholic author William A. Jurgenes, “The change referred to here is the change which takes place when the food we eat is assimilated and becomes part of our own body” (Jurgens W, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Volume I, p. 57).

Justin Martyr calls the Eucharistic bread and wine "the flesh and the blood" of Jesus. Justin believed in the physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. However Justin also believed that the bread and wine do not cease to be bread and wine. He speaks of their partaking "of the bread and wine" over which thanksgiving was pronounced. Elsewhere Justin calls the consecrated elements “bread” and “the cup.” They are the flesh and blood of Christ insofar that they are given in remembrance of his incarnation and blood.

“Now it is evident, that in this prophecy [allusion is made] to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks” (Justin Martyr, "Dialogue with Trypho").

Clearly, while Justin believed in the physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, as did John Calvin, he also believed that the elements remained bread and wine given in remembrance of Christ. Therefore Justin Martyr's view on the Eucharist is dissimilar from the Roman Catholic transubstantiation, and as such he is anathemized by the Roman Church.


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#43258 - Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:07 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: Pilgrim]  
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patricius79 Offline
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Hi Pilgrim, I'm reading your message...I can't comment on Jurgens. But do you have a quotation from him that "the change" is only referring to ordinary dietary assimilation? In regard to your interpretation of this passage from Justin (and Irenaeus).... I think it's clear what they are saying.

#43263 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:10 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Here is an even earlier father, Ignatius Bishop of Antioch:

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

#43266 - Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:01 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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You see, regardless of what writer outside of the inspired Scriptures one quotes, there is the possibility of error. How one should take the words of Ignatius is debatable, of course, on the matter of the "real presence" of Christ in the elements. We are to test all spirits. (1Jh 4:1)

Even in Paul's day there were those who were teaching error.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 (KJV) "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

And the continuation of erroneous teachings was foretold by Peter. (2Pet 2:1) These false teachings spread throughout the Church even more so immediately after the Apostles had died. The ECF have no authority in the Church albeit they are worthy of consideration. ALL uninspired writings are to be examined under the light of God's inspired, infallible and inerrant written Word.


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#43267 - Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:02 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Hi patricius79 and welcome to the Highway.

Your reference (above) is from Ignatius' Letter to the Smyrnaeans a source for historical information but as it is not Scripture and was never considered part of the canon, should not be used to establish doctrine. His letter was written to counter docetism, an early church heresy that denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (incarnation) and his bodily resurrection.


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All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
#43268 - Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:07 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: chestnutmare]  
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patricius79 Offline
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Hi, I am not basing my argument on Tradition alone, but on Tradition and Scripture. Cf. 2 Tim 2:2.

The Scriptures are clear about the Bodily nature of Communion. Jn 6:

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

52If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

53The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

54Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

55He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed


Here is St. Cyril Bishop of Jerusalem:

"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9).

#43275 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:03 AM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Patricius,

Roman Catholics are fond of quoting John 6 with regards to communion, but few quote verse 63: "It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life." With regard to your citation, It should be noted first that Jesus is not speaking of the Lord's Supper here, which had not even been established at that time (nor does John's Gospel include an account of the institution of this sacrament, for that matter). But the idea that Jesus is propounding is not one of sanctified cannibalism, literally eating His physical body. The idea is rather that Christ is the source of spiritual nourishment, & in particular that His self-sacrifice is the source of eternal life for men. Jesus speaks in a similar manner to the woman at the well, using the figure of water (John 4:10-14).


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#43277 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:36 PM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Hi Kyle,

"The bread which I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." "For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." Cf. Jn 6:51,55. I believe that Christ's flesh does avail, since it is through it that we enter into the Sanctuary. Cf. Heb 10:20. I think Jn 6:63 is referring to the body in its connection to unbelief.

Regarding Jn 4:10-14... I have no clear evidence that this is not referring to living water. As it is written, "this is the one who came through water and blood... so there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood." Cf. 1 Jn 5:6-7.

As I understand it, cannibalism is eating a dead body. Catholics don't believe in eating Christ's dead body nor eating him in a bloody--i.e. a destructive manner.

For a citation, her is the Catechism of the Cathoic Church:

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: [Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190


Here is St. Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria:

"You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made,it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ....When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body."
Athanasius,Sermon to the Newly Baptized,PG 26,1325(ante A.D. 373),in ECD,442


Last edited by patricius79; Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:46 PM.
#43279 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:57 PM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: patricius79]  
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Originally Posted by patricius79
"The bread which I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." "For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." Cf. Jn 6:51,55. I believe that Christ's flesh does avail, since it is through it that we enter into the Sanctuary. Cf. Heb 10:20. I think Jn 6:63 is referring to the body in its connection to unbelief.


We enter into the holy place by means of Christ's atoning death - not by means of literally eating His body. It is not Christ's flesh & blood, in themselves, which give life - it is the redemptive work of the God-Man, Jesus Christ, which gives life, a work that would have been impossible unless He took on the flesh & blood nature of man to act in man's stead in bearing the punishment of man's sin & fulfilling man's duties toward God.

Quote
Regarding Jn 4:10-14... I have no clear evidence that this is not referring to living water. As it is written, "this is the one who came through water and blood... so there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood." Cf. 1 Jn 5:6-7.


The thing of which you have no clear evidence is that the Scriptures teach transubstantiation.

Quote
As I understand it, cannibalism is eating a dead body. Catholics don't believe in eating Christ's dead body nor eating him in a bloody--i.e. a destructive manner.


Cannibalism is the eating of human flesh by another human being.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#43281 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:34 PM Re: Irenaeus on Transubstantiation [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Hi Kyle, Do you think there is clear biblical evidence that Jn 6:51-59 is merely symbolic and not literal?

Is there good evidence for this in the Light of the World (Cf. Mt 5:14) between 100 and 1000 A.D.?

Tertullian: "[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed, in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands, that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

In the Holy Spirit of God, Dan Schultz

Last edited by patricius79; Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:19 PM.
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