Donations for the month of December


We have received a total of $140 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 3,324
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,549
Posts50,772
Members921
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,313
Tom 3,324
chestnutmare 2,868
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,748
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 28
Pilgrim 21
Recent Posts
Presuppositional Apologetics
by Tom. Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:42 PM
Adam created holy, so how could he fall?
by Pilgrim. Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:40 PM
Christmas
by Pilgrim. Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:01 AM
Key teaching of Dispys is Gnostic
by PerpetualLearner. Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 PM
Glorious Bach
by goldenoldie. Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:46 AM
Nothing New Under the Sun?
by PerpetualLearner. Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:25 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#43421 - Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:46 PM Hedonism  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
MikeL Offline
Journeyman
MikeL  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Washington State
Calvinists,

As you can already tell, I'm not a Calvinist. However, two people very dear to me have recently converted (sisters). I am trying to understand your beliefs. They are odd to me. bingo That's putting it nicely.

But what's even more odd, given all the austerity and severity and so on with Calvinism, my sisters are now enthralled by John Piper, and a book he wrote called _Christian Hedonism_.

I can remember the first time I heard the title. I actually winced. Christian.....hedonism. sick

There couldn't be a more glaring oxymoron. I suppose the next popular book will deal with how we can harness the power of the devil to most glorify God: Christian Satanism. threaddevil

These icons are great, by the way.

So if some of you might indulge me: what is it that attracts Calvinists to Christian Hedonism? Calvinism is all about being strict and Puritan - whence the Pleasure? confused

#43423 - Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:20 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
1. You can find out much about what Calvinism really is and teaches by doing a little reading here: Calvinism and the Reformed Faith.

2. There are not a few of us here who are repulsed at the phrase "Christian Hedonism". There are some salient discussions here on the board regarding Piper and his views. Just do a search for "Piper" and/or "hedonism" and you will find them. wink

3. Not everyone who says they are a Calvinist is a Calvinist... you know this to be true, surely! scold


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#43427 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:19 AM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 319
Johan Offline
Enthusiast
Johan  Offline

Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 319
South Africa
Hi Mike,

I am glad that you are worried about what your sisters are reading!!! BigThumbUp

Well, why not get them the right stuff to read and one extra for yourself? I can highly recommend this little book of John Calvin!! Sorry, but it has to be Calvin. giggle

Regards

Johan

Last edited by Johan; Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:22 AM.
#43432 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:03 AM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
AC. Offline
Enthusiast
AC.  Offline
Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
NJ
Originally Posted by MikeL
Calvinists,

Calvinism is all about being strict and Puritan - whence the Pleasure? confused


Hey Mike,

what's your background, where are you coming from?

Christian? What denomination? Athiest? Agnostic?

What type of pleasue are you seeking? wow1


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#43433 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:23 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: AC.]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
MikeL Offline
Journeyman
MikeL  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Washington State
I'm not sure how it relates to the question, but I'm a Christian, I attend an Anglican Church in America that recently split from its Episcopal parish over the issue of homosexuality.

I'm not seeking pleasure. At least I hope my life can't be reduced to that. I'm not an animal. Pleasure-seeking seems a bit un-Christian to me, because it also included pain-avoidance, and since we're called to carry to cross, well, it would be hard to call that pain-avoidance.

What interests me as a side-note: Piper's book came out in 1986-ish. It has just now started to catch on. Any thoughts on why? Something to do with seminarians finally getting teaching positions, and spreading the good word? shrug

Mike

#43436 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:34 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
AC. Offline
Enthusiast
AC.  Offline
Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
NJ
I was more focusing on your adversion to Calvinism, I don't know anything about the book you're referring to, I'm not a fan of Piper...I prefer the classics! Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Bunyan and the like....


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#43439 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:35 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: AC.]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
MikeL Offline
Journeyman
MikeL  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Washington State
I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to know about my adversion to Calvinism? Well, I don't like Calvinism because it twists Scripture via duplicitous concepts (two loves, two wills, two worlds, etc.) and makes God the bad guy. Does this answer your question?


#43448 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:22 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Originally Posted by MikeL
What interests me as a side-note: Piper's book came out in 1986-ish. It has just now started to catch on. Any thoughts on why? Something to do with seminarians finally getting teaching positions, and spreading the good word? shrug


It may have something to do with the Article of the Month. grin


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#43455 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:32 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
Originally Posted by MikeL
I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to know about my adversion to Calvinism? Well, I don't like Calvinism because it twists Scripture via duplicitous concepts (two loves, two wills, two worlds, etc.) and makes God the bad guy. Does this answer your question?

What that tells us that you haven't a clue what historic Calvinism teaches. [Linked Image]

I know nothing of "two loves", "two wills", "two worlds", "etc.", nor have I read such nonsense in any Calvinist writings. Can you provide some quotes with author's names who claim to be Calvnists who have made such ridiculous statements? [Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#43459 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:28 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
AC. Offline
Enthusiast
AC.  Offline
Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
NJ
Hi Mike,

A recent article in Christianity Today in which John Calvin is the cover story gives a good introduction on the great (often misunderstood) Reformer...


Quote
'Preforeordestination'

Mark Twain has Huckleberry Finn refer to a perplexing Calvinist sermon he once heard on "preforeordestination." In agreement with Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Luther before him, Calvin did teach that God was sovereign in salvation no less than in creation, and that divine election was entirely gratuitous—ante praevisa merita, as the scholastic tag went, not based on God's foreknowledge of human achievement. Calvin held this view not because he was a mean man or a dour despot, but because he believed to have found it clearly taught in Holy Scripture. For Calvin, however, the doctrine of predestination was not an a priori metaphysical axiom from which everything else was derived. Rather, it had a Christological focus (with Christ as the mirror of election) and a pastoral import.

In discussing predestination, Calvin followed the method of Paul in his Epistle to the Romans. One does not begin with the inscrutable decrees of God, but rather with God's general revelation in creation and the conscience (Rom. 1). This leads to a discussion of human sinfulness (chapters 2-3), God's atoning work in Christ and justification by faith (chapters 4-7), followed by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the declaration of God's unfathomable love (chapter 8). Only then is it fitting to consider the theme of God's electing grace in the history of Israel and in our own lives (chapters 9-11). Only then, as we look back on our rescue from sin, can we exclaim with the non-Calvinist Charles Wesley, "Amazing love, how can it be, that thou my God shouldst die for me!"

The elect are not the elite. There is no place in Calvin's thought for the kind of spiritual snobbery reflected in the old camp-meeting ditty, "We are the Lord's elected few, / let all the rest be damned./ There's room enough in hell for you, / we don't want heaven crammed!" The true Calvinist preaches the gospel promiscuously to all persons everywhere, aware that God alone infallibly knows all those who belong to him.


http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/september/14.27.html


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#43467 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:28 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
MikeL Offline
Journeyman
MikeL  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Washington State
Well, take John 3:16 for example.

How do you translate "world"?

How do you translate "whosoever"?

How do you translate "loved"?

Mike


#43468 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:34 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: AC.]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
MikeL Offline
Journeyman
MikeL  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Washington State
Thanks, good article.

But isn't indiscriminate preaching rather wasteful? Certainly, we are commanded to spread the word. Perhaps it's because it's assumed that "whosoever" hears and believes the message and confesses Christ as Lord will be saved. That's my theory.

More importantly, isn't it a bit dishonest to preach to a group of people and let them believe any one of them might be one of the "elect"? To be completely honest, shouldn't they start with a disclaimer: "Listen folks, some of you are elected, some are reprobate. I have no way of knowing. You have no way of knowing. Only God knows. So what I'm about to tell you will be irrelevant for the reprobate, and superflous for the elect."

Mike

#43472 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:04 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
Originally Posted by MikeL
But isn't indiscriminate preaching rather wasteful? Certainly, we are commanded to spread the word. Perhaps it's because it's assumed that "whosoever" hears and believes the message and confesses Christ as Lord will be saved. That's my theory.

More importantly, isn't it a bit dishonest to preach to a group of people and let them believe any one of them might be one of the "elect"? To be completely honest, shouldn't they start with a disclaimer: "Listen folks, some of you are elected, some are reprobate. I have no way of knowing. You have no way of knowing. Only God knows. So what I'm about to tell you will be irrelevant for the reprobate, and superflous for the elect."


PLEASE [Linked Image] (Hedonism)

The MEANS by which God calls His elect is through the promiscuous preaching of the Gospel which outwardly calls ALL MEN to repent of their sins and believe upon Christ unto the remission of sins. Who those elect are is of no import in regard to this outward call in the Gospel.(cf. Matt 28:19,20; Acts 17:30; Rom 1:16; 10:8-17, et al) Lorraine Boettner does a fine job of answering your objection(s) here: THAT IT PRECLUDES A SINCERE OFFER OF THE GOSPEL TO THE NON-ELECT.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#43474 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:23 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: MikeL]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
Originally Posted by MikeL
Well, take John 3:16 for example.

How do you translate "world"?

How do you translate "whosoever"?

How do you translate "loved"?

I have given the literal Greek translation here on numerous occasions and then opened up the text both exegetically and expositionally... do a search for it. wink

Re: "world" - see: The Word 'WORLD' in John 3:16 Does not Mean 'All Men Without Exception

Re: "whosoever" - (Grk: pas ho pisteuwn pres part) = all the believing ones, all believers, thus, the elect in all the world

Re: "loved" - effectual love, God's eternal purpose to save

See also:

- God So Loved the World
- An Exposition of John 3:16
- God's Election in John 3:16
- The Method of Salvation Through Jesus Christ

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#43479 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:14 PM Re: Hedonism [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
MikeL Offline
Journeyman
MikeL  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Washington State
Pilgrim,

I really don't have time to read all these links - if I did, I wouldn't be on this forum. It's here I'd like to have some discussions about various topics. But thank you for the links, I will try to keep them in mind.

Does the word "world" in Jn 3:16 mean ALL MEN?

"the promiscuous preaching of the Gospel which outwardly calls ALL MEN to repent of their sins and believe upon Christ"

You seem to think so in this statement?

When you have to say what it doesn't mean - all men without exception - it's really a dodge. Tell me what it means to you.

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." I Tim 2:4

"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." I Tim 2:6

I think it's saying that God loves all men.

I have a feeling you might agree....as long we we define love correctly, right? Isn't there a special kind of love that God has for his elect?

By the way, is the present active participle of pisteuo used elsewhere to mean "elect"? I would think the Greek word "eklektos" might be more clear, which I think is used for every instance of the word in the NT.

So let's add another concept to the duplicitous list: believing ones also means elect, and elect means elect.

That works great, if you assume those who believe are the same as the elect!

Mike


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 16 guests, and 121 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
drewk, patrice, Robert1962, Ron, billmcginnis
921 Registered Users
Shout Box
December
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
666,285 Gospel truth
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.056s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 2.7126 MB (Peak: 3.0187 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-16 07:17:16 UTC