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#44325 - Friday, March 12, 2010 8:01 PM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Pilgrim]
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Needs to get a Life
Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3621
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
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Can you expand a little more on that particular aspect?
Do you know of any articles that stress this aspect? Sure...... here ya go: New Covenant Theology.  Can you expand a little more on that particular aspect?
Do you know of any articles that stress this aspect? Sure...... here ya go: New Covenant Theology. Yikes  was I that unclear? When I asked you that I was not talking directly about NCT (although it has relevance to NCT); I was referring to what you said about the pre-incarnate Christ speaking at Mount Sinai and how it shows as you put it. in that it provides a strong argument against NCT and all those who claim that the Ten Commandments are not applicable to NT Christians and that we are to abide only by the "Law of Christ". I am looking for you to expand on this (i.e. give further understanding on how this proves NCT wrong), and if you know any, provide articles (or commentary) on the pre-incarnate Christ speaking on Mount Sinai. Tom
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#44326 - Saturday, March 13, 2010 4:01 AM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Tom]
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Enthusiast
Registered: Tuesday, October 3, 2006
Posts: 273
Loc: South Africa
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I followed some of the links on the NCT. This is what one says and I think that's exactly what Pilgrim refers to: The version of law in the Old Covenant era was the Mosaic Law, which included the Ten Commandments. The version of law in the New Covenant era is the law of Christ, which includes the commands of Christ that pertain to the New Covenant era and the commands of his Apostles. Over the last couple of months I have heard preachers refer to Matthew 22:38,38 AS IF it was something totally new that Jesus taught while he was simply quoting from the Old Testament. I always felt uneasy when a preacher did this. Johan
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#44327 - Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:54 AM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Johan]
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Head Honcho
Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 12760
Loc: NH, USA
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Johan,
EXACTLY! NCT posits that Christ brought in a "new law" which superseded the OT law, particularly the moral law as delivered at Sinai. They claim that only those laws which are "echoed" in the NT are binding upon Christians. Further, they teach that there is no mention of the Fourth Commandment in the NT and therefore it is no longer applicable; it belonged only to Israel. There are far more implications, of course, but this is the gist of it.
The point being, that since the pre-incarnate Christ was the Author of the Ten Commandments and that He delivered them to Moses, what the incarnate Christ taught on earth was identical. There is only one Lawgiver and one moral Law. Jesus further established this truth when He said that He only taught what the Father had given to Him, thus establishing the unanimity of the Godhead. (Jh 6:63; 8:26, 28; 8:38; 12:50; 14:10) The short of it is that there is only one moral law which God has delivered which is binding upon all men for all ages. It was the same person who put His law in the heart of Adam and all who followed him. It was the same person who iterated that law on Sinai. And it was the same person who taught this very same law when He walked on earth.
_________________________
 simul iustus et peccator
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#44333 - Sunday, March 14, 2010 4:04 PM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Johan]
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Needs to get a Life
Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3621
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
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Johan Sorry I was not clearer, though I have a lot to learn about what NCT teaches (do I really want to know more  ), I did know about the aspect you speak about. My main reason for asking for further comment was Pilgrim's statement that it was the pre-incarnate Christ that spoke at Mount Sinai. If true and I am looking for further clarification, I believe Pilgrim brings up a very good point. Along with this, I am trying to find further understanding in the hopes that it would somehow cement (if I can put it that way) this aspect in my mind. Mainly because, experience tells me that I am going to be confronted with this subject again and I want to be prepared for it. Hopefully I have made myself clear. Tom
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#44334 - Sunday, March 14, 2010 4:16 PM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Tom]
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Head Honcho
Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 12760
Loc: NH, USA
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Tom, I would commend to you John Owen's commentary on the book of Hebrews and of course the relevant section of that commentary that deals with this particular passage of that book. Obviously, I'm recommending Owen's comments because he holds to the same understanding of the passage as I do. And since I'm a nobody but Owen is a somebody perhaps his comments might have more persuasion for you.
_________________________
simul iustus et peccator
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#44337 - Monday, March 15, 2010 4:34 AM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Johan]
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Head Honcho
Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 12760
Loc: NH, USA
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Johan, It is an interesting study to search through the OT and look for "Christophanies"; appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ, aka: the Son of God... legitimate ones of course and not any that one might "force". A few examples might suffice to pique the interest of some. - Who was it that Adam heard the voice of who walked in the Garden of Eden? (Gen 3.8) - Who appeared to Abram at Shechem and spoke to him? (Gen 12:7) - Who was that third 'man' who visited Abram on the plains of Marme? (Gen 18:1) - Who was that angel of the Lord who spoke to Abraham out of heaven? (Gen 22:11ff) - Who was it that Jacob wrestled with all night long? (Gen 32:24-30) - Who was that man outside of Jericho with a drawn sword who confronted Joshua? (Josh 5:13-15) - Who was that man who appeared to Manoah and his wife? (Judges 13:2ff) - Who killed 185,000 men of the Syrian army? (2Kgs 19:35) - Who was that Angel of the Lord that stood before Joshua the high priest? (Zech 3:1-5) Now, let's keep in mind that "no man has ever seen God [the Father] at any time" John 1:18, cf. Deut 5:26 and 1Tim 1:17. Thus when the OT speaks of men having seen God it must be that they saw either the pre-incarnate Son or the Holy Spirit. An excellent article concerning John Owen's views on Christ's pre-incarnate appearances can be found here: John Owen and Old Testament Christophanies.
_________________________
simul iustus et peccator
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#44445 - Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:19 PM
Re: Who was that?
[Re: Tom]
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Persnickety Presbyterian
Registered: Saturday, September 13, 2003
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia
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Tom, Kistemaker writes as follows regarding v. 26: Again the writer reminds the readers of the experience at Mount Sinai. From numerous places throughout the Old Testament Scriptures, they learned that the shaking of the mountains when God gave his people the Decalogue was an extraordinary event. The speaker obviously is God, whose voice shook the mountain and made the people trmple with fear. But the same voice also utters a promise that has recurring and lasting significance. Through the prophet Haggai, God spoke to the Israelites concerning rebuilding the temple and said, "In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory" (2:6-7). From the literature of the Jewish rabbis, we learn that this particular passage was considered to be messianic.
The prophet predicted a shaking of the heavens and the earth. The writer transposes the terms heaven and earth to show the sequence of the effect of Christ's work. The earth shook when Jesus died and when he arose (Matt. 27:51; 28:2), but more importantly the preaching of the gospel and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit shook the entire world. The heavens also experienced change: the angelic hosts sing Christ's praises (Rev. 5:12); angels rejoice when one sinner repents (Luke 15:10); angels are sent out to minister to the needs of believers on earth (Heb. 1:14); and angels long to look into the mystery of salvation (Eph. 3:10; I Peter 1:12). It is Christ, therefore, who is at the center of this upheaval on earth and in heaven. He will cause heaven and earth to shake when he appears a second time (Matt. 24:29; II Peter 3:10).
_________________________
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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