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#46359 - Mon May 02, 2011 2:35 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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thanks again for your reply and if I came across obnoxious, please accept my apology.Yes you can always consider another interpretation, which I always look at, and then so can you. If I remember correctly you said my interpretation was "unbiblical". All I did was point out what Paul said. The interpretation is not that hard, unless you are trying to make it fit your doctrine, then you do have to twist it a little.

It is very apparent you don't believe one has to be baptized and Paul thinks otherwise. Why didn't you start out with where he says, "I belong to Paul"....and so on.Then he asked is " Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized into the name of Paul? Tell us what it would take to " belong to Paul?" "Cephas?" "Apollos?" In order to "belong" to any of these mention they would have had to die for you and you would have to be baptized into their name.

Now again I ask you about Christ. Did Christ die for you? were you baptized into his name? If so, you belong to Christ.Why does Paul just mention himself? Because whatever applied to him, applied to the others.Or do you disagree with that? The point is you can put any name in there and it would apply to that person also. Joseph Smith? John Calvin? I guess since Paul didn't mention these guys by name it would be ok. That is your logic.Do you belong to John Calvin? Should be easy to answer. Did he die for you? Were you baptized into his name?

So I would like for you to tell us in this context in order to "BELONG" to Jesus, what two things had to take place. I say that he had to die for you and you have to be baptized into his name. What do you say?

Campbellite response? Right beside John Calvin? So Mark 16 should say," he that believes and is NOT baptized shall be saved, but he that disbelieves shall be condemn". So tell us, why is baptism mentioned at all? Also would a unbeliever be baptized? Anyways, tell us which is correct.

1 Peter 3:21 again tell us which is correct.
1) Baptism does now save us
20 Baptism does not save us.

The Eunuch is not an assumption, it is based on the other conversions in the book of Acts. Acts 2 is but one. Lastly you state throug grace alone, faith alone, in Christ alone. So you mean someone doesn't have to Repent? Confess? Call on his name?

If you have the time, please give us the scripture that teach such. Also while you hate my antagonism and disrespect, you might look in the mirror. I promise I will try and do better....but lets see, I had an unbilical response and then I follow Campbell.

I close this by asking you some questions.

1} Is baptism a command?
2) from Jesus, man or neither?
3} If from Jesus, can I refuse to obey this command?
4) If I refuse, do I love him or hate him?

You take care and hope to talk with you soon....and if I offend you, please know I am not trying to do so.

1. he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
2. he that believes is saved and can be baptized if he wants


#46360 - Mon May 02, 2011 4:01 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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Your comments are way out of line, you should show the Board leader a little courtesy & respect even if you don't agree with him.



I'm having a hard time following this thread, what is your point exactly? That water baptism (believer's baptism) is required for salvation? What denomination are you?

AC



The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#46361 - Mon May 02, 2011 4:26 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: Peytonator]  
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Greetings,

I just wanted to look at this a little further. I think I already looked ay Matt.28:19 and showed why I believe it is water baptism. What proof do you have that it is Holy Spirit baptism?

I looked at Acts 19:3-5 and I am not sure what this proves. Why didn't you read verse 6? Look at v5 " On hearing this, they were baptized in THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS". Acts 10:47-48 shows that to be water baptism. Then notice v6 " when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied".

I have to ask, if it was Holy Spirit baptism they received in v.5, why did Paul have to lay his hands on them in v6 to get the Holy Spirit? Doesn't make sense. I will talk on this later, but this is one of the reasons why I believe that HS baptism has ceased. This happened also in Acts 8. The Apostles had to come down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit and it says in v.18 " now when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the LAYING ON of the apostles hands..." They had already been baptized in the name of Jesus, but not the Holy Spirit. I have to ask, when the apostles died, how was the Holy Spirit given?

Question 11 Baptism in the name of Jesus is under the New Testament not old. Jesus said after he was raised from the dead, " he that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." He also stated that remission of sins would be preached in his name begiing in Jerusalem. In Acts2:38 we see what they were told to do.

Question 10 who says they are "dry"? Romans 6 is talking about water baptism. Buried,Raised and v3 says baptized into Christ and we see that is water baptism Acts 10:47-48.Some have you walking in newness of life before being baptized, but in v4 we see it comes after being baptized. I have to ask again, when were you buried with him in Holy Spirit baptism? And what were you raised up out of?

Look at Col 2:12 it says you are raised with him through FAITH in the working of God". Are you raised with him in Holy Spirit baptism through FAITH? Notice that God does the work...not Jesus. This should be a question for those who believe baptism is something in addition to faith. Does faith save? Yes....but when? At the point of faith? No. but at the point of being baptized. Tell us, when you were baptized, were you raised through faith?

question 9 answered

question 8 good question and yet the bible does tell us the gifts would cease. This will be time consuming so I will look at this later.

question 9 The bible doesn't teach sprinkling to anyone. Those who are baptized have to be old enough to repent and believe. So why didn't he baptize? Did he baptize John? Why have John Baptize? Jesus in Matt.28:19 commanded man to preach and baptize. Jesus baptism was done for the first time in Acts2. and was a prophecy to be filled. It was to be done on all flesh, Jew and gentile. Acts 2 you have the apostles who were Jews and acts 10 you have a Gentile. Thats it.

#46362 - Mon May 02, 2011 4:28 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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BIGD, so you're saying you can't be saved without Baptism?

http://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#46363 - Mon May 02, 2011 4:38 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: AC.]  
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Greetings,

Which comments? I agree as he should do the same.I have been looking at whether baptism is water or HS baptism and have been trying to show why I believe it is water baptism. There was a gentleman who had ask some questions and I was giving him reasons why I thought it was water baptism instead of Holy Spirit baptism.

Yes, I believe the bible teaches one has to be baptized to be saved. I am not a member of a denomination.

#46364 - Mon May 02, 2011 4:40 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: AC.]  
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I believe the bible teaches that.

#46365 - Mon May 02, 2011 4:42 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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Originally Posted by BIGD
All I did was point out what Paul said. The interpretation is not that hard, unless you are trying to make it fit your doctrine, then you do have to twist it a little.

No, what you pointed TO was your understanding/interpretation of Paul's words. THAT is what I am disputing. Your contention is that baptism is essential to salvation. This all the Reformed confessional churches deny categorically as do I. IF, however, that is not what you are setting forth, please make that clear.

Originally Posted by BIGD
It is very apparent you don't believe one has to be baptized and Paul thinks otherwise.

No, that is decidedly NOT what I have been arguing for. But rather, as above, that baptism is essential to salvation, i.e., justification is by faith + baptism. Is this YOUR contention; that without baptism one cannot be saved?

Originally Posted by BIGD
Why didn't you start out with where he says, "I belong to Paul"....and so on.Then he asked is " Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized into the name of Paul? Tell us what it would take to " belong to Paul?" "Cephas?" "Apollos?" In order to "belong" to any of these mention they would have had to die for you and you would have to be baptized into their name.

I have already given you my interpretation of the text. In that passage's context, baptism signifies one's self-identification with the name(s) used in the administration of it. Or, to put it another way, it signifies that one is a believer and disciple/follower of the one whose name one is baptized into. Thus Paul is being sarcastic in asking if the Corinthians were baptized into the name of Paul, or Cephas, etc. The reality of the case was that they were baptized into the name of Christ (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), to whom by their professed faith, they are His and are committed to follow all that God commands.

Originally Posted by BIGD
Now again I ask you about Christ. Did Christ die for you? were you baptized into his name? If so, you belong to Christ.Why does Paul just mention himself? Because whatever applied to him, applied to the others.Or do you disagree with that? The point is you can put any name in there and it would apply to that person also. Joseph Smith? John Calvin? I guess since Paul didn't mention these guys by name it would be ok. That is your logic.Do you belong to John Calvin? Should be easy to answer. Did he die for you? Were you baptized into his name?

Sorry, but I can't seem to follow your logic??

Originally Posted by BIGD
So I would like for you to tell us in this context in order to "BELONG" to Jesus, what two things had to take place. I say that he had to die for you and you have to be baptized into his name. What do you say?

1. Who is the "us" you are referring to? I would really like to know since in my estimation, 99% of the members here and the 1000s who read these forums would stand with me.

2. In order to "BELONG" to Christ there is only ONE thing required... faith; a repenting faith and a believing repentance (2 sides of the same coin). This is everywhere taught in Scripture. So again, the question is to you, Do you believe that baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation; without baptism one CANNOT be saved?

Originally Posted by BIGD
Campbellite response? Right beside John Calvin? So Mark 16 should say," he that believes and is NOT baptized shall be saved, but he that disbelieves shall be condemn". So tell us, why is baptism mentioned at all? Also would a unbeliever be baptized? Anyways, tell us which is correct.

1. You were not accused of being a Campbellite. I asked, "Is this a Campbellite response?". I believe now more than ever before that it is a valid question given what you have written throughout this discussion.

2. I'll let Calvin answer the next part of your question, not that I am inextricably bound to everything John Calvin believed, but rather to show that my view is consistent with biblical Calvinism which ALL the Reformed churches affirm confessionally, including the London Baptist Confession of 1689.

Mark XVI. 16. He who shall believe and be baptized shall be saved. This promise was added in order to allure all mankind to believe; as it is followed, on the other hand, by a thratenting of awful destruction, in order to terrify unbelievers. Nor is it wonderful that salvation is promised to believers; for, by believing in the only begotten Son of God, not only are they reckoned among the children of God, but receiving the gift of free justification and of the Spirit of regeneration, they possess what constitutes eternal life. Baptism is joined to the faith of the gospel, in order to inform us that the mark of our salvation is engraven on it; for had it not served to testify the grace of God, it would have been improper in Christ to have said, that they who shall believe and be baptized shall be saved. Yet, at the same time, we must hold that it is not required as absolutely necessary to salvation, so that all who have not obtained it must perish; for it is not added to faith, as if it were the half of the cause of our salvation, but as a testimony. I readily acknowledge that men are laid under the necessity of not despising the sign of the grace of God; but though God uses such aids in accommodation to the weakness of men, I deny that his grace is limited to them. In this way we will say that it is not necessary in itself, but only with respect to our obedience.

Originally Posted by BIGD
1 Peter 3:21 again tell us which is correct.
1) Baptism does now save us
20 Baptism does not save us.

Yes and No! Baptism now saves as the flood waters saved Noah. Peter uses the word antitupon, i.e., anti-type. God assuredly saved Noah using the ark and the water as means to that end. The water saved Noah and his family in this way. But the water didn't save Noah in and of itself. Likewise, Peter's point is that believers are not to be deceived by following the wickedness of the world as did those in the days of Noah, but rather to rest in the resurrection of Christ, of which baptism signifies and seals to all who HAVE BEEN SAVED by faith in Him. Notice that Peter speaks of a "good conscience", i.e., a conscience which is at peace knowing that salvation is in Christ whom God raised from the dead.

Originally Posted by BIGD
I close this by asking you some questions.

1} Is baptism a command?
2) from Jesus, man or neither?
3} If from Jesus, can I refuse to obey this command?
4) If I refuse, do I love him or hate him?

1. Yes
2. From Jesus
3. No
4. Logically fallacy!! You again are trying to prove that baptism is an indispensable and inherent part of salvation, without which one will surely suffer eternal ruin. I disagree with much vehemence.


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#46366 - Mon May 02, 2011 5:35 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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Quote
4) If I refuse, do I love him or hate him?




what the heck kind of question is that to ask a Christian? Pilgrim is not saying we should not be baptized, he's saying one can still be saved without Baptism, do you dispute that? You sound like one of those SDA's that hold Saturday sabbath over and above everything else!
And you are not considering the Bible as a whole with all it's related symbolism.

Why can't a child or even an infant be Baptized? In your eyes the requirement for salvation would still be fulfilled, would it not? if you are going to isolate verses into a solely literal context.

Last edited by AC.; Mon May 02, 2011 5:36 PM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#46367 - Mon May 02, 2011 5:53 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Greetings again and thanks for your response.

I guess the bottom line is that you don't like Pauls argument. I believe it is pretty simple.If you and the other 99%, which expains alot, can read 1 Cor. and can't see something so simple, then believe what you want. I can see why you don't like what Paul is saying, but Paul did a great job.

I guess since there are two things mentioned about "belonging" to Christ, you don't accept the first one either? That he had to die for you? Is that "unbilical" to?

I believe what Jesus said, "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." how about you?

The text talks about " belonging".And the text gives you at least two things that are required to "belong" to him. It is apparent that you don't believe either of the two are correct.

So, one last time, and I do mean last.

1} in order to belong to Christ, did he have to die for you?
2) in order to belong to Christ, do you have to be baptized in his name?I say Yes. How about you?

Sorry about the one you couldn't follow. I admit I do that alot. So I will try again and hope you can understand. Thanks for being patient. You mentioned earlier why Paul just mention himself and not the others when he said" baptized in the name of Paul". I just think that Paul knew the answer would apply to any name that would fit there. Just because the other names weren't mentioned doesn't mean anything. Wouldn"t it still be the same if Paul said, " baptized in the name of John Calvin or Alexandar Campbell?" The only name that fits is " Jesus".
He died for us and I was baptized into his name, therefore I " belong to him".

The bottom line is that I believe that Christ had to die for me and I had to be baptized into his name to belong to Jesus and you don't. You think that is unbiblical. Can we agree on that?

The "us" is the 1% and Paul. Repenting Faith? what happened to " faith alone?" You know, I don't see that in this context....what verse was that? Trying to make it fit?
So it is not faith alone , it is Faith plus Repentance. Is Repentance found in John 3:16? So much for grace alone/ faith alone/ Jesus alone.

I believe Jesus saved me when I was baptized for this is when I came into contact with his blood and according to Col2 God worked on me when I was baptized and God removed the sins of the flesh when I obeyed him and we can look at Acts 2:38 " Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins". By the way, weren" these believers? Tell me and the other 1%, were they saved in V37? or lost? Await your answer. Question. Did your faith save you?

I follow Jesus for I belong to him not Aleandar Campbell just as you would say you don't follow John Calvin. Well maybe you do. did he die for you? were you baptized in his name?

Wow......I guess Jesus was improper.In case you didn't know it, that what Jesus said. " He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". I guess that is hard to understand like 1Cor.
You have to follow John Calvin to get that. So I believe " he that believes and is baptized shall be saved" and you and John Calvin and the other 99% believe Jesus said, " he that believes is saved and can be baptized if he wants".

So, so far the bible says
1} baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21
2]believe plus baptism saved. mark16

and the 99% say
1} baptism does not save
2} believe, saved, baptized if you want.

I'll stay in the 1%.

I ask you again. If I refuse to be baptized do I love Jesus or hate him? Can I go to heaven if I refuse to be baptized?

If you say you love me and keep not my commandments then you are a liar and have no truth in you. Again I ask, If I refuse to be baptized will I go to heaven?

You have a great night and I am still waiting on grace alone/ faith alone/ Jesus alone. Haven't seen the scriptures yet......oh almost forgot, we have to throw repentance in there. so much for faith alone....

#46369 - Mon May 02, 2011 6:08 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: AC.]  
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Hello Ac, thanks for writing me.

Yes, Pilgrim is saying that. Did he not say " Faith alone"?
Pilgrim is right, Baptism is a command of Jesus and I simply ask him if I refuse to be baptized, do I love Jesus or hate him? Do you guys want to straddle the fence? So I ask you, can I refuse to be baptize and go to heaven? I say "no". What do you say?
Yes I take the bible as it is written. I happen to believe in a saving, obedient faith, not a dead one. In order to be baptized you have to be a believer. Do you believe an infant has to believe to be saved? why not? Would thier salvation be fulfilled without faith? Repentance?

you have a great night.

#46370 - Mon May 02, 2011 6:08 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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takethat BIGD

Oh, there's that darn machine gun again. I just can't help myself sometimes.

I wouldn't waste your time with this one Jeff dizzy


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#46371 - Mon May 02, 2011 6:13 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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Originally Posted by BIGD
In order to be baptized you have to be a believer. Do you believe an infant has to believe to be saved? why not? Would thier salvation be fulfilled without faith? Repentance?

you have a great night.


Where does it say you have to be a believer to be baptized? There are many who are baptized and have been who are not believers.

Based on your logic I don't see why the faith and repentance can't come later as long as the checklist is complete!


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

#46372 - Mon May 02, 2011 6:25 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: BIGD]  
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Originally Posted by BIGD
I guess the bottom line is that you don't like Pauls argument. I believe it is pretty simple.If you and the other 99%, which expains alot, can read 1 Cor. and can't see something so simple, then believe what you want. I can see why you don't like what Paul is saying, but Paul did a great job.

Your sarcasm is really unacceptable. Being a "Lone Ranger" is a hard way to go, ain't it? rolleyes2

Actually, I love Paul's argument and ALL of Scripture. What I don't like is your twisting of it which results in a synergistic salvation, which is unbiblical and a damnable heresy; a heresy condemned by the true Church throughout its history. If that is what you want to believe, then so be it.

Originally Posted by BIGD
I guess since there are two things mentioned about "belonging" to Christ, you don't accept the first one either? That he had to die for you? Is that "unbilical" to?

No.

Originally Posted by BIGD
I believe what Jesus said, "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." how about you?

I not only believe what Jesus said, but I also believe what he MEANT! How about you?

Originally Posted by BIGD
So, one last time, and I do mean last.

Promises, promises. igiveup

Originally Posted by BIGD
The bottom line is that I believe that Christ had to die for me and I had to be baptized into his name to belong to Jesus and you don't. You think that is unbiblical. Can we agree on that?

Iteration seems to be of necessity when communicating with you, eh? I do not hold that baptism is necessary for salvation because the Bible cannot contradict itself, which teaches in myriad places that justification is by faith ALONE. And yes, repentance is part of that faith... not repentance + faith. They are inseparable. One who is convicted of sin will infallibly repent and believe. And one who believes will de facto be repentant. This is Theology 101 of the Christian Church.

Originally Posted by BIGD
Repenting Faith? what happened to " faith alone?" You know, I don't see that in this context....what verse was that? Trying to make it fit?
So it is not faith alone , it is Faith plus Repentance. Is Repentance found in John 3:16? So much for grace alone/ faith alone/ Jesus alone.

It's called the "Analogy of Faith" (comparing Scripture with Scripture as a WHOLE), which is yet another fundamental principle of biblical hermeneutics. wink

Originally Posted by BIGD
I ask you again. If I refuse to be baptized do I love Jesus or hate him? Can I go to heaven if I refuse to be baptized?

Yes.

Originally Posted by BIGD
I am still waiting on grace alone/ faith alone/ Jesus alone. Haven't seen the scriptures yet......oh almost forgot, we have to throw repentance in there. so much for faith alone....

- Justification is by Grace Alone
- Justification by Faith Alone: The Relationship of Faith to Justification
- Justification of Faith Alone: The Nature of Justifying Faith
- The Cambridge Declaration
- Of Justification
- Of Repentance Unto Life


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#46373 - Mon May 02, 2011 6:26 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: AC.]  
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Hello AC,

I imagine there are alot of believers who aren't saved belivers either. The Demons believe and tremble are they saved believers? Where does it say? Mark16:16 " he that believes and is baptized shall be saved". If they were baptized and didn't believe, then they got wet.

So I ask you again, does an infant have to believe to be saved? If they die, are they saved without faith? Your logic point I don't understand. I guess Peter in Acts 2 had to tell the Jews who were believers to complete a checklist to be saved.

Lastly, I notice you didn't answer my question. Can I refuse to be baptized and still go to heaven. I say no, and you say......YES. So I can refuse to obey Jesus and be called a liar and go to heaven.....is this right?

#46374 - Mon May 02, 2011 6:39 PM Re: Is water baptism to be practiced today? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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hey Pilgrim, old friend.

Can I go to heaven and refuse to be baptized and you knew you had to answer yes.

So a person who doesn't love Jesus can go to heaven. WOW.

I will look at the rest later but just for clarification on your "no".
Is it necessary for Christ to die for me to belong to Christ?

Is that unbiblical?

Thanks, and I will talk with you guys later, I know that will make your day.Take care...

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