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#47727 - Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:37 AM On the matter of Total Depravity
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13235
Loc: NH, USA
Please give a reason for your answer. grin
Do you think it is proper to speak of regenerate Christians as being "Totally Depraved"?
Only one choice allowed (7 total votes)
Yes - 2 (29%)
No - 5 (71%)
Voting on this poll ends: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:36 AM
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#47728 - Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:52 AM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Hitch Offline
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Registered: Tuesday, January 1, 2002
Posts: 440
Loc: PeoplesRepublikofOregon
If it werent for the carbs I'd have a big bucket of popcorn for this one.
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#47729 - Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:13 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
John_C Offline

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Registered: Saturday, September 15, 2001
Posts: 1864
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I voted yes because of when depravity is discussed it concerns the state of man in our nature. Our heritage is one of totally depravity. I think if we start seeing ourselves as less depraved then a works/pietist view of ourselves will manifest whereby we will depend upon our works or pietism, not totally upon God.

Now, our nature has been changed (regenerated), but we are unable to keep from sinning. Even the good that we do does not come from pure motives.
_________________________
John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7

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#47730 - Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:15 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
sojourner Offline

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Registered: Friday, February 13, 2009
Posts: 142
Loc: Georgia, USA
I voted no because if you are speaking of a "regenerate Christian", you are speaking of a person that formally was totally depraved but now having a new nature is no longer.

2Pet 1:3,4 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."


Edited by Pilgrim (Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:05 PM)
Edit Reason: Added the forgotten text
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#47746 - Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:31 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
AC. Offline
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Registered: Saturday, October 21, 2006
Posts: 387
Loc: NJ
I think so, because it's Jesus righteousness that makes alive, apart from that we are completely a corpse......

since our hope lies in Jesus and we have been saved, are saved will be saved

and sin will continue to be a burden although we become further exercised in faith as we grow in grace, I think it's proper to preceive myself as totally depraved, at least in my old flesh/sinful nature....

I probably would not call other regenerate totally depraved but when speaking of mankind in general and the external church I would use that term....

maybe I'm kind of changing my answer midway thru, for myself yes...for others who are regenerate, I would not label them as such......
_________________________
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine


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#47748 - Friday, February 24, 2012 12:03 AM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3838
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I voted no, mainly because of the connotations of Rom 8:29
Quote:
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


If we are still totally depraved, by the fault we will not be conformed to the image of His Son.
This transformation is not man's work, but God's.
2 Cor.3:18 goes right along with this.
Quote:
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So, basically if we are still “totally depraved” as Christians, sanctification will not happen. This does not mean however, that we don’t struggle against sin. Someone who is totally depraved is still dead in trespasses and sins and has no real desire to be sanctified.
I believe 1John 2: 3-4 is applicable.
Quote:
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Tom

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#47749 - Friday, February 24, 2012 5:13 AM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder

Registered: Thursday, January 3, 2002
Posts: 980
Loc: Florida, Occupied CSA
I'm with AC on this one. I am fully capable of sinking into depths of sinful depravity if I despair of God's providence and abandon myself to my own inclinations. I take the Apostle Paul's description of being trapped, ending up doing what he doesn't want to and neglecting the things he really inwardly wants. Yet thanking God for His deliverance from that bondage at the same time.

It's an already / not yet kinda thing. I'm free, but not fully delivered. Sin has no power in me, yet it sometimes seems to trade places with my righteous intentions, sometimes reigning in my thoughts, words, and actions.

Am I totally depraved? Yes and no. Am I totally free from sin? Yes and no... already / not yet.

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#47751 - Friday, February 24, 2012 9:37 AM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Robin]
AC. Offline
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Registered: Saturday, October 21, 2006
Posts: 387
Loc: NJ
Yeah Romans 7 really spells it out, with Paul feeling his total depravity in his members and also when he mentions that when the law revived he died......

I also think this topic is tied to assurance where Paul fears that if he fails in his faithful teachings he would be a castaway, and speaks of all the affliction he has suffered in the name of Christ and near the end of his life he's speaks of fighting the good fight...he doesn't sound like one who is secure in his regenerate state....

I always thought the P of tulip was always dead on, the regenerate persevere...they do not feel secure in assurance in themselves or their experiences....their rest, faith and hope is always in Christ...He is their assurance.....


Originally Posted By: Robin
I'm with AC on this one. I am fully capable of sinking into depths of sinful depravity if I despair of God's providence and abandon myself to my own inclinations. I take the Apostle Paul's description of being trapped, ending up doing what he doesn't want to and neglecting the things he really inwardly wants. Yet thanking God for His deliverance from that bondage at the same time.

It's an already / not yet kinda thing. I'm free, but not fully delivered. Sin has no power in me, yet it sometimes seems to trade places with my righteous intentions, sometimes reigning in my thoughts, words, and actions.

Am I totally depraved? Yes and no. Am I totally free from sin? Yes and no... already / not yet.



Edited by AC. (Friday, February 24, 2012 10:26 AM)
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The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine


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#47752 - Friday, February 24, 2012 1:12 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
AC. Offline
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Registered: Saturday, October 21, 2006
Posts: 387
Loc: NJ
I hope it doesn't seem I'm trying to take over this thread but I think another related issue (besides the objective vs subjective realities of regeneration) is essence of faith compared to the exercise of faith....

I'm thinking of Pilgrim's Progress and the many examples of the different faith-oriented levels/stages/strengths of the regenerated characters (who all had the essence of faith):

Faithful - whose faith remained strong even unto death (fatih well exercised)
Hopeful - who had great hope (with faith moderately exerciesd)
Christian - who seemed to experience great highs and lows (faith not always in excercise and faced with various doubts and fears throughout his journey, even at the end....he was well tried throughout his pilgrimage which is often how it goes)
Little Faith (whose faith was seldom in exercise)

I would think a faithful preacher's faith would be more excercised than one who stood in the back of the chuch beating their breast and afraid to even look up to GOd (even though he stiil is a child of God who has the essence of faith)....

I think all these issues relate to how we look at ourselves and others who are 'regererate'.....the problem being that we don't always know and should never judge the heart of another.....

AC


Edited by AC. (Friday, February 24, 2012 2:21 PM)
_________________________
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine


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#47756 - Friday, February 24, 2012 11:56 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3838
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Just to be clear when I said no, I am saying that I believe that is compatible with Romans chapter 7 talking about struggling Christians.
I must admit though that although I said no, it could be just the way I am looking at the matter.
Let me explain.

I believe that as Christians we have been implanted (if I can use that term) a new principle of life that has been planted by the Holy Spirit. The person becomes a new man and is being transformed into the image of Christ. They are of course as William Henrdriksen says in his commentary on Romans.
Quote:
Paul sees a different law, one that is constantly waging war against the law of his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin.

Verse 24 says this very forcefully "Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" I believe Paul here speaks for every true Christian.
Verse 25 shows that when a believer dies he will no longer be subject to the law of sin and death and he can serve and love the Lord the way he truly wants to.

So, in one sense as Christians we are still are affected by our fallen natures. However, being as we are definitely being transformed into the image of Christ in the here and now. Can we be considered "totally depraved" in the same sense that a non-Christian is?
I personally don't think so, but that might be because of how I am looking at the matter.

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#47757 - Saturday, February 25, 2012 5:05 AM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Tom]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13235
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom

Just to be clear when I said no, I am saying that I believe that is compatible with Romans chapter 7 talking about struggling Christians.
I must admit though that although I said no, it could be just the way I am looking at the matter.

<cut>

I personally don't think so, but that might be because of how I am looking at the matter.

Now there's a definitive statement and a confidence in one's view that should be the envy of everyone!

The revealing of my vote and my reasons for my choice will be forthcoming AFTER Tuesday when the Poll ends. I'm enjoying all the interaction so far.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#47760 - Saturday, February 25, 2012 9:06 AM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
John_C Offline

Permanent Resident

Registered: Saturday, September 15, 2001
Posts: 1864
Loc: Mississippi Gulf Coast
A question that can be ask. Are the regenerated capable of stop sinning. I don't think so in that I do not think I make a deliberate conscious decision to sin. It still just comes naturally.

We may no longer be depraved positionally, but we are by our actions.
_________________________
John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7

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#47763 - Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:09 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13235
Loc: NH, USA
Here's something to start some thinking also...

QUESTION: What is the term often used as a synonym for "Total Depravity", although technically Total Depravity can be understood as fallen man's 'condition' or 'state' and the synonym can be viewed as the 'result' or 'effect' of Total Depravity.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#47765 - Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:53 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3838
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I believe the answer you are looking for is "sin nature".

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#47767 - Saturday, February 25, 2012 8:19 PM Re: On the matter of Total Depravity [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3838
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Originally Posted By: Pilgrim
Originally Posted By: Tom

Just to be clear when I said no, I am saying that I believe that is compatible with Romans chapter 7 talking about struggling Christians.
I must admit though that although I said no, it could be just the way I am looking at the matter.

<cut>

I personally don't think so, but that might be because of how I am looking at the matter.

Now there's a definitive statement and a confidence in one's view that should be the envy of everyone!

The revealing of my vote and my reasons for my choice will be forthcoming AFTER Tuesday when the Poll ends. I'm enjoying all the interaction so far.


Pilgrim
Actually what you are seeing as me sitting on the fense, is not what I am trying to portray. I am quite confident in answering no. I have read what some commentaries have to say on the issue (such as Henriksen's) and as far as I can tell I am in agreement with them concerning the issues involved.
However, what I am not certain about, mainly because I haven't read a diffinative answer to that particular question you asked; is whether or not these commentators would say yes or no.
So my answering no based on how I am looking at the matter based on what I have learned on the matter; both on past and present study.
What I am not afraid of however, is changing my view on the matter if light is shed from Scripture that changes my mind.

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