The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Concerning the freedom of the will

Carlos,<br><br>I'm not sure which book I was referring to since I wasn't aware he had written two. Now that you mention it though, something tells me that he did. BTW, I heard that Clark Pinnock was given the boot from some evangelical society because of his consistent Arminian views, which have brought him to the Open Theism heresy. Can you (or anyone) elaborate?<br><br>Ron

Ron,<br><br>The second book, "Their God is Too Small", just came out this August.<br>DiscerningReader<br>As far as concerning Pinnock, I will have to check. I know that some society had gathered together to discuss whether Open theists such as Boyd, etc. should be booted. I guess that maybe the same one. I know that Ware was involved in this. I've been out of the loop on that. I thought that the voting process was still ongoing. I guess not any more. I remember James White commenting on that in one of his DL shows. I will see if If I can find some information on it.<br>I'll be gone for the week, but when I return I'll try post something, if someone has not provided the information already. I pray also that God gives spiritual life to your father.<br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

Carlos,<br><br>Thanks for you concern for my father. <br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Ron

You may enjoy this:<br><br>http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/001/14.24.html

Joe,<br><br>Thanks for the Link.<br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thanks.gif" alt="thanks" title="thanks[/img]<br><br><br><br>Carlos

Look in the Bible and see how many references God makes to "will", "willing" "would", etc. All throughout the Bible God speaks of the will of man.<br><br>Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.<br>Mt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.<br>Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.<br>Mt 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;<br>Mt 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:<br>Mt 20:32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?<br>Mt 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.<br><br>If man did not have a "free will" and an ability to choose, then man is not responsible for his actions. And if God were to hold man responsible, God would be unjust for it is God's word that says: Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If man did not have a "free will" and an ability to choose, then man is not responsible for his actions</font><hr></blockquote><p> Who says man does not have a "free" will. It is so free that he will choose Hell every-time if not for being born again of the Spirit of God. The problem with Arminianism is they think the human will is freer than God's will. But, they fail to understand that God's will is LIMITED--God cannot sin, God MUST be Holy, or He would cease to be God and declare He never was God. Thus, since man is created in the very IMAGE OF GOD, he has not a FREE WILL in the Armianian since, but a limited will. Dead things have NO WILL and man is DEAD in trespasses in sin and thus dead spiritually to God.<br><br>Until REBIRTH a man/woman will never choose for God. And I am sure, though you failed to mention it, where these verses are as well. If not I am sure I can post them. In the mean time go to the articles here and interact with them. If you have questions we will be glad to interact with you on them. <br><br>http://www.the-highway.com/calvinism.html<br>http://www.the-highway.com/atonement.html

I think that it is not the will that predestination concerns itself with, but desires.<br><br>It is possible to remain sinless for the whole of one's life. However, due to human nature, we desire only to do evil. Thus, sinlessness is only hypothetical; man's evil desires prevents him entirely from being sinless.<br><br>When God redeems us, he changes our desires so that we want to serve him. Thus, the only reason why are willing to follow after Christ is because we desire him. This desire is entirely a work of the Holy Spirit; thus, it is a miracle that we desire God at all.<br><br>Hence, IMO, the will is not as important as desire when it comes to the doctrine of predestination.

Mr. Rabbit! hehe<br><br>I couldn't agree with you more in that it is the desires of the heart which will determine the acts of the will. Of course, the emotive element of man also works in conjunction with the noetic element of man; those two being the source and influence of the will.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Hence, IMO, the will is not as important as desire when it comes to the doctrine of predestination.</font><hr></blockquote><p>It is important to remember that "Predestination" is God's pre-determination TO something and really irrelevant to either desire or will. For example:<blockquote>Ephesians 1:4-6 (KJV) "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: <span style="background-color:yellow;">Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children</span> by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."</blockquote>Thus, God's predestination is teleological... there is an appointed end of things, including the eternal destiny of persons and the means by which that end will be accomplished. Again we can see that here:<blockquote>Romans 8:29-30 (KJV) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did <span style="background-color:yellow;">predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren</span>. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."</blockquote>In his passage, Paul tells us that not only were the elect predestinated [to be conformed to Christ's likeness; i.e., holy, righteous], but also that the Lord Christ was also predestinated with the end that He might be the "firstborn among many brethren". In verse 30 we see these "means" or "path" by which the elect are brought to perfection in Christ; effectual calling, justification and final glorification.<br><br>In His Grace,

Point taken. Indeed, predestination is teleological. However, I believe that God is first concerned with the desires of the heart, rather than the abilities of the will. <br><br>Paul points out that that man only desires to sin.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Rom. 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>James agrees with Paul when assigning desire as being one of the chief culprit of evil:<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]James 1:13 ¶ When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; <br>James 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. <br>James 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>However, the reason why we have any love for God at all is primarily teleological:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]1John 4:19 ¶ We love [God] because he first loved us.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I certainly believe that, in accordance with our free but limited wills, the miracle isn't so much that we have the ability to love God (for this was given to us at creation), but that we desire to love God.<br><br>Obviously, I'm probably only stating something you already know, but it should be emphasized that the natural man, although having a free will, cannot desire God.<br>

Dear Mr. Rabbit:<br><br>When you make the distinction between the will and desires, I think you are dealing with a critical issue, though I would refine what you said below a little:<br><br>"It is possible to remain sinless for the whole of one's life. However, due to human nature, we desire only to do evil. Thus, sinlessness is only hypothetical; man's evil desires prevents him entirely from being sinless." <br><br>The scriptures teach that mans heart is "only evil continually" and "decietful above all things and desperately wicked" so your statement about desires is right on point. However, we are taught that submission to those deires, even if only in the mind, is what is sinful in such passages as "if a man look on a woman with lust after her, he has committed adultery in his heart" and when combined with the James passage on the difference between lust (desire) it seems clear that there is a distinction between sin, will and temptation or desire:<br><br>"James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust,<br>and enticed.<br>1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when<br>it is finished, bringeth forth death."<br><br>Perhaps I am wrong but the apostles distinction between lust, and it's conception seems significant.<br><br>I am not disagreeing with your basic point, which I believe is a critical and important one, rather, I'm trying to say that there does seem to be a distinction between temptation and acting on it, if only in the thought life, which I believe is a greatly overlooked area of sin.<br><br>Job said that he made a "covenant with his eyes" in this regard and this has been a blessing to me, as I believe he meant that he diverted his eyes from those things that were needlessy tempting. <br><br><br><br>Gerry<br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Obviously, I'm probably only stating something you already know, but it should be emphasized that the natural man, although having a free will, cannot desire God.</font><hr></blockquote><p>True, true.... but doesn't this seem to contradict what you said immediately before hand? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]<blockquote>the miracle isn't so much that <span style="background-color:yellow;">we have the ability to love God (for this was given to us at creation)</span>, but that we desire to love God.</blockquote>The ability to love God was lost soon after Adam was created when he sinned; he died spiritually, i.e., his disposition/inclination was turned against God, he having no desire for God. And we, being the inheritors of Adam's corruption, are born hating God (desire) and thus have no ability to love God. It is when a sinner is regenerated that a new nature/disposition is created which restores that desire and thus man is able to love God; i.e., to yearn for His fellowship, submit to His authority and walk in obedience to His will (law). [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

This is an overlooked area Gerry,for to look upon a woman with lust , is for a christian , to have committed adultry in the 'true' sense.<br><br>Basically - Thinking lustful or murderous thoughts is tantamount to actually doing - for a christian. My soul was in turmoil for a couple of years over this very issue.............<br><br>howard

Howard:<br><br>Your statement about "Basically - Thinking lustful or murderous thoughts is tantamount to actually doing" is accurate and I think can be expanded to a whole list of other sins, like covetousness, bitterness, malice, etc. <br><br>As a result, I think many Christians are actually practicing and living in unconfessed sin daily which 1 Jn makes quite and issue of as a sign of true vs false profession. Thus, this is not just a doctrinal but a very practical issue of christian living.<br><br>One key question is recognizing when one is doing this and thus facilitating repenting/avoiding it. Owen's work on Sin, Temptation and Mortification of Sin is really priceless here in my view. His treatment of the Lord's teaching on "that you may not ENTER INTO TEMPTATION" was simply wonderful and most needed teaching in this regard. There is a condensation of this work called "What Every Christian Needs to Know" that is faithful to Owen's original, I believe, but which is easier to read and most helpful in the application of these issues.<br><br>Gerry

I am not saying that are willingness to receive the Gospel is not a miracle, I am saying that our desire to receive the Gospel is more of a miracle.