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#47734 - Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:30 PM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Tom]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13345
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Though, I am still a little confused at Dabney's comment that if world means elect, then in verse 18, the elect can lose their salvation.

You and me both... I just don't get it! shrug

Originally Posted By: Tom
I do however agree the verse is evangelistic in nature, seeing as nobody except God knows who the elect are.

And I must respectfully but firmly disagree that the text is 'evangelistic in nature'. See my lengthy reply elsewhere. grin
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#47735 - Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:01 PM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3901
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Originally Posted By: Pilgrim
Originally Posted By: Tom
Though, I am still a little confused at Dabney's comment that if world means elect, then in verse 18, the elect can lose their salvation.

You and me both... I just don't get it! shrug

Originally Posted By: Tom
I do however agree the verse is evangelistic in nature, seeing as nobody except God knows who the elect are.

And I must respectfully but firmly disagree that the text is 'evangelistic in nature'. See my lengthy reply elsewhere. grin


Just to be clear, when I said
Quote:
I do however agree the verse is evangelistic in nature
, I was not referring to the non-elect. Mainly because it is clear else where in Scripture that without the Father's drawing nobody will come to Christ and this drawing is irresistible.
This is one of the main reasons I dislike it when Christians tell non-Christians that God loves them.

Now, I am going to read what you said about the article.

Tom

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#47736 - Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:59 AM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3901
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim

Just a couple comments for now.

Concerning Numbers 21:8, I think I agree with you here, I don't think the passage is rhetorical. Unless I have missed something in the context of the verse, in order for it to be rhetorical it would at least give a clue that it is rhetorical. I don't see one.

Concerning "whosoever believeth in him" and the Greek. This is an area that I know very little about.
I must admit that "Whosoever believeth in Him" compared for example.
Quote:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I really do not see a lot of difference either way.

I would agree that there is a difference if I accepted the Arminian understanding. However, as a Calvinist all "Whosover believeth in Him" tells me is that in order to have life one must believe in Him.
How is this different than other translations? (Why do I get the feeling I am missing something?) whistle

I will say that I don't see anything rhetorical, for the fact is only the elect believe.

If I remember correctly the A.V. was translated from a different translation of the Greek (Textus Receptus?). I would be interested in seeing the literal English translation is from that text and how it compares to the A.V. rendering.

Although I would agree that knowing a little Greek isn't enough and I would also agree with one must add to that knowledge. That is where my agreement with the author ends.
Where in the context of the passage and the greater whole of Scripture does the author see that a "rhetorical stategy" in the verse?

Sorry, no time to say more, or for that matter check for spelling/gramer mistakes. I need to go to bed.

Tom







Edited by Tom (Wednesday, February 22, 2012 1:01 AM)

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#47737 - Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:51 AM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Tom]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13345
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom

Quote:
I do however agree the verse is evangelistic in nature
,I was not referring to the non-elect. Mainly because it is clear else where in Scripture that without the Father's drawing nobody will come to Christ and this drawing is irresistible.

Again, I strongly disagree that John 3:16 is "evangelistic in nature"! I do not find that was God's purpose in including these words of Jesus... yes, Jesus (I don't think these are John's own words) to call sinners to repentance and faith in Him. I believe He was setting forth the infinite love, grace and mercy of God in the sending of the Son to redeem those He had foreloved and predestinated for salvation from all eternity... "so that the believers will not perish but have eternal life" sums it just dandy for me. grin
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#47738 - Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:54 AM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Tom]
Robin Offline

The Boy Wonder

Registered: Thursday, January 3, 2002
Posts: 1012
Loc: Florida, Occupied CSA
Pilgrim is saying that "whosoever" is NOT in the original text. Therefore he concludes that the gospel does not apply to "whosoever." On that point we agree. Redemption is applied exclusively upon the elect.

My point is that since we don't know who the elect are, we must offer redemption in Christ to "whosoever will," without discrimination, to everyone. Leaving the results to God.

I too recoil when an evangelist says, "God loves you" applying it to everyone. I would prefer to say, "God hates sin and will not spare the guilty!" But that He has redeemed a people for Himself out of Adam's fallen race, having provided a Substitute to receive the terrible justice of God in their stead. These are the ones who put their faith in Christ. They are God's beloved children.

Again as Pilgrim rightly said, the fact of "limited" redemption (particular redemption, I prefer to say) does not preclude "the promiscuous preaching of the gospel."

We're not so far apart on this as it may appear.

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#47740 - Wednesday, February 22, 2012 5:21 AM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Tom]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13345
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Concerning "whosoever believeth in him" and the Greek. This is an area that I know very little about.
I must admit that "Whosoever believeth in Him" compared for example.

Quote:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I really do not see a lot of difference either way.

Well, I do see a huge difference. yep

- whosoever connotes an indefiniteness, potentiality, possibility, open-endedness, unlimitedness
- believing ones connotes definiteness, selectivity, limitedness, preference, particularity

My understanding of the text is that God sent His only begotten Son to rescue a particular group of people, the believers in the world, from the judgment which was to come and to grant them eternal life. The Son wasn't sent so that whoever decides to believe will be saved. He didn't come to make salvation possible if someone believes... He came to save His people from their sins and to grant them faith in Him.

Originally Posted By: Tom
If I remember correctly the A.V. was translated from a different translation of the Greek (Textus Receptus?). I would be interested in seeing the literal English translation is from that text and how it compares to the A.V. rendering.

The TR and WH texts are identical.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Although I would agree that knowing a little Greek isn't enough and I would also agree with one must add to that knowledge. That is where my agreement with the author ends.
Where in the context of the passage and the greater whole of Scripture does the author see that a "rhetorical strategy" in the verse?

- I am NOT by any standard a "Greek scholar". However, I minored in NT Greek and took additional Greek studies under Dr. Vern Poythress at WTS (Philly) and received a "B+" for my efforts, which is no small feat at WTS during that time; late '70s - early '80s. So, I really don't feel I fit into the category BG created in order to divert attention from his misuse of the original language.

- I agree that there is more to learning biblical truth than memorizing declensions, parsing verbs, etc. However, the additional knowledge that the author specifically mentions is unwarranted, i.e., "The interpreter must look for the rhetorical strategy behind the text." Are we to understand that before we can understand the true meaning of a text, we have to look for the 'rhetorical strategy' and only then IF we actually find it (aka: eisogesis), then and only then will we come to learn what the text is REALLY saying? igiveup

So, what I see is that if your argument is unsound, your interpretation fallible, and your conclusion not widely held, you use your 'status', educational achievement(s), large vocabulary and a bit of sophistry to razzle-dazzle your hearers so that they are put off from being able to offer any possible criticism. evilgrin

It is always amazing to see how many different ways people will twist and turn a text of Scripture to fit a preconceived idea and/or to prove some new 'insight' that has been hidden for over 2000 years. John 3:16 is no exception in this case.
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#47741 - Wednesday, February 22, 2012 5:44 AM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Robin]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13345
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Robin
My point is that since we don't know who the elect are, we must offer redemption in Christ to "whosoever will," without discrimination, to everyone. Leaving the results to God.

Semantical difference perhaps, but I do not believe we offer redemption in Christ to whosover will, but rather we proclaim redemption in Christ which encompasses far more than the typical "gospel" of today and call sinners to repentance and faith. Jesus is recorded as summing things up in these 'evangelistic' words:

Matthew 11:25-30 (ASV) "At that season [having preached the Gospel and doing many marvelous works throughout the land which most rejected] Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.] Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

We bring the truth of God, of the Fall and its consequences, of man's natural state, of Christ's perfect righteousness and substitutionary death for sinners, of the Judgment to come and then the promise of God to save all those who truly repent of their sins and believe upon Christ. The salvation of God is for those only who are laboring and heavy laden (with the guilt of sin and the inability to do anything about it). Christ came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The PROCLAMATION is promiscuous, the CALL to repentance and faith is unrestricted. But it is NOT an "invitation" to make Jesus your Savior and/or Lord. Nor is it a proposition to let Jesus into your heart.

Acts 17:30-31 (KJV) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead."
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#48880 - Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:50 PM Re: John 3:16: A Gospel Invitation? [Re: Tom]
Dennis Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Sunday, April 5, 2009
Posts: 21
Loc: Torrington, Ct.
Originally Posted By: Tom
I read an interesting article called “Whosoever Believes”: Why I interpret John 3:16 as a Gospel Invitation.
Thoughts?

In the comment section, one responder said something I thought was interesting.
Quote:
I like what Dabney says about it: if whosoever=elect, then we have the elect losing their salvation in v18.


Tom
Sounds more like a statement, then an invitation.
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"There is no possibility of taking a mercy out of God's hand, till the mercy be ripe for us, and we ripe for the mercy."

THOMAS BROOKS

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