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#48866 - Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:18 PM Romans 6, Freed from sin?
Dennis Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Sunday, April 5, 2009
Posts: 21
Loc: Torrington, Ct.
Hello everyone, I been a way for a wile but it is good to be back. Looking forward to some good discussions. smile
I been studying in the book of Romans and Ch 6, I it find very interesting and was wondering what others thoughts were on some subjects.
Thanks.

Romans 6:6-7 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Whats everyone's thoughts on verse 6-7, and 14?

It seems to be teaching that our old self was crucified with Christ and the body of sin is dead (done away with), and we are no longer slaves to sin.

1) If this is the case, considering believers, where does sin come from if the body of sin is dead?

2) What does Paul mean we are freed from sin because the old self has died to it?

What does Paul mean when he says we were slaves to sin, but believers (in Christ) are no longer slaves to sin, but have been set free?

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Rom 6:14.


Edited by Dennis (Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:22 PM)
Edit Reason: Spelling corrections
_________________________
"There is no possibility of taking a mercy out of God's hand, till the mercy be ripe for us, and we ripe for the mercy."

THOMAS BROOKS

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#48867 - Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:20 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Dennis]
Dennis Offline
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Registered: Sunday, April 5, 2009
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Originally Posted By: Dennis

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Rom 6:14.
What does it mean, "you are not under law but under grace?" and what are the implications?


Edited by Dennis (Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:21 PM)
_________________________
"There is no possibility of taking a mercy out of God's hand, till the mercy be ripe for us, and we ripe for the mercy."

THOMAS BROOKS

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#48873 - Wednesday, June 13, 2012 6:35 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Dennis]
Robin Offline

The Boy Wonder

Registered: Thursday, January 3, 2002
Posts: 1019
Loc: Florida, Occupied CSA
The only way it makes to me in terms of a forensic declaration of liberation from sin, in which we have "died" to sin in Christ. While the "old nature" remains as a part of our physical/temporal body in this physical/temporal existence, stained with sin, our standing before God is righteous because in Christ we have died to sin.

Elsewhere in Romans, the Apostle compares the death of a husband that frees his widow from the obligations of marriage with how our death to sin in Christ has freed us from the condemnation we faced before.

Thank God for the indwelling Holy Spirit Who empowers His own to live above the influence of that old nature, of the world, and of our adversary's deception!

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#48876 - Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:02 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Dennis]
Dennis Offline
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Registered: Sunday, April 5, 2009
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Great reply Robin, thanks. smile
_________________________
"There is no possibility of taking a mercy out of God's hand, till the mercy be ripe for us, and we ripe for the mercy."

THOMAS BROOKS

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#48892 - Friday, June 22, 2012 8:52 AM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Dennis]
Pilgrim Offline

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Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13355
Loc: NH, USA
Well, it looks like no one is going to respond to your question(s), which is a shame.

1. Paul is saying that we are no longer under the dominion of sin in two ways: a) the power to condemn true believers was removed by their substitute, Jesus Christ, in His crucifixion. And, b) the power of sin, i.e., it's domination as that which influenced one to sin, aka: Total Depravity, has been broken. With regeneration came a new dominion of the mind, affections and will, which is predisposed to holiness and righteousness.

2. Definition: "body of sin"... this is not to be construed that the body, in and of itself was/is sinful. The body, sometimes referred to as "the flesh" is the instrument of sin, i.e., it is the vehicle through which the sinful nature is expressed outwardly.

3. Sin is still part of a regenerated believers life because the 'old nature' was not totally eradicated. It still exerts its influence but in a radically diminished capacity compared to when it had total dominance.

4. We are 'freed from sin', again in two aspects: a) freed from the condemnation which it brought for it revealed the guiltiness one has according to the law, which is all the law can do in a three-fold way: i) reveals one's sinfulness, ii) establishes condemnation for not keeping it perfectly, and iii) even increases the desire to sin, b) having been crucified with Christ (that unfathomable union with Christ), the desire to do all the will of God is the believer's primary goal.

5. Re: "slaves to sin" has already been touched on above. The dominion of the sin is what one outside of Christ controls all that he thinks, desires and does. Those who have been united to Christ by a true living faith, due to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, are now 'slaves to Christ', i.e., they belong to Him and thus desire to now serve God in Him. The hold that the sin nature once had was broken. Out of the new nature what now natural flows from it is a love for God, love for all that is holy and good and a hatred of sin. The believer is now 'free' from the condemnation of the law, it's power and dominating presence or influence. This new freedom does not abolish the law in relation to the believer (Antinomianism), but rather further establishes the law. Apart from grace, the law only condemns. But due to grace, the law now serves as a guide to holy living before God. The law, in and of itself has no power to save. But in Christ the law becomes the believer's delight.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#48893 - Friday, June 22, 2012 6:19 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Pilgrim]
Dennis Offline
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Registered: Sunday, April 5, 2009
Posts: 21
Loc: Torrington, Ct.
Thanks Pilgrim. I really appreciate your reply, lots of info and truth.

God bless.
_________________________
"There is no possibility of taking a mercy out of God's hand, till the mercy be ripe for us, and we ripe for the mercy."

THOMAS BROOKS

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#48894 - Friday, June 22, 2012 6:36 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Pilgrim]
Robin Offline

The Boy Wonder

Registered: Thursday, January 3, 2002
Posts: 1019
Loc: Florida, Occupied CSA
Quote:
Well, it looks like no one is going to respond to your question(s), which is a shame.


That's me, no one. smirk I must decrease, He must increase!

Being freed means that I can decrease, as "dying to self" takes greater effect in me with practice abiding in Christ; and He can increase in me by His abiding Holy Spirit and as His word gains ground in my mind. To be spiritually minded is life, and to be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:5-7).

I think verse 13 of chapter 8 sums it up nicely for me:

Quote:
...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live (NASB).
A key word for me in the whole "sanctification" thing is surrender: Not as in "volunteering" as though we had anything to offer God, but in giving up any claim on our own selves, our time, our "rights," etc., yielding them up to God and truly becoming "slaves to righteousness."



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#48896 - Friday, June 22, 2012 9:05 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Robin]
chestnutmare Offline



Registered: Monday, September 8, 2003
Posts: 2483
Loc: NH
No, your post did not show up on his computer. He didn't see any responses until he posted his and then he saw yours.

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#48897 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:06 AM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Online   content
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3909
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim

As you probably know, I agree with you on each of these points, especially points 1-3.
I thought I would ask a question that is related to these points; that I think will benefit this thread.
As you are aware in the Reformed community there is not a consensus on whether or not we are still “totally depraved” or not.
In fact recently I ran into someone who correctly said that we have nothing righteous in ourselves; when God looks at us he sees an “alien righteousness”. He sees Christ’s righteousness not our own righteousness. This is the difference between Reformed “imputed righteousness” and Roman Catholic “imparted righteousness”. Imparted righteousness means that God makes us righteous; whereas imputed righteousness has nothing to do with God making us righteous.”
However, he went on to say that if we believe we are no longer “totally depraved” as some Reformed Christians say. It is actually inconsistent and fits better with Roman Catholic “imparted righteousness”, than Reformed “imputed righteousness. Saying we are no longer “totally depraved”, gives us a righteousness of our own.
He added that this is also a major problem these days, with Protestants who say things like “when God looks at us as Christians, He sees Christ’s righteousness in us. The words “in us” are wrong! God see Christ righteousness.

What say you?

Tom


Edited by Tom (Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:07 AM)

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#48898 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 4:02 AM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: chestnutmare]
Robin Offline

The Boy Wonder

Registered: Thursday, January 3, 2002
Posts: 1019
Loc: Florida, Occupied CSA
Originally Posted By: chestnutmare
No, your post did not show up on his computer. He didn't see any responses until he posted his and then he saw yours.


LOL, no offense taken. It's good that it happened because it created opportunity for the "I must decrease, He must increase" response. I might not have come up with that otherwise! smile

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#48899 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 4:18 AM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Tom]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13355
Loc: NH, USA
Tom,

1. Historically, the difference has been in regard to "infused" righteousness (RCC) vs. "imputed" righteousness (Protestant). I have not heard the term "imparted" righteousness before.

2. I think that the definition of "Total Depravity" is where this idea has arisen, not only with the RCCs but also among Protestants. Add to that an over reaction to any idea that man contributes anything to salvation and you can get the notion that regenerate man is still totally depraved.

3. If you take the biblical and classic Reformed definition of the doctrine of Total Depravity then it is impossible that a regenerate man can still be totally depraved. As I have argued elsewhere, e.g., HERE and HERE, a topic of which you were involved, grin IF a person is totally depraved, i.e., their entire being is dominated by a sin nature thus rendering them totally unable to even desire to do good, never mind to be saved by Christ, etc., then repentance, faith and sanctification would be impossible. It is "out of the heart" that man sins and it is "out of the heart" that man does good works after the "tree" is made good.

Unlike the RCC doctrine of "infused" or "imparted" righteousness, the good works of the regenerate man are still imperfect and thus they cannot be construed as 'holy' or 'righteous', nor do they in any way, shape or form contribute to one's salvation. But neither can they be the fruit of a totally depraved man for otherwise the person wouldn't even desire to be in conformity to the law; to love God with all his mind, heart, strength and soul nor love his neighbor as himself. Lastly, such a view denies any actual regeneration of the Holy Spirit. It would be similar to Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism denying the totality of the noetic effects of the Fall, i.e., attributing some remaining ability to seek after God and to do good, only in opposite to those who want to maintain that a regenerate man is still totally depraved. Remember, the RCC contention against the Reformers was that Sola Fide led to gross antinomianism (let us sin that grace may abound). But the Reformers held to no such notion and responded with, "Salvation (justification) is by grace through faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone." There is a radical change of nature in a Christian that seeks after God and all that is holy, righteous and good. This is not the essence of one who is Totally Depraved.

Yes, there is a remnant of sin (old man, sin nature, body of sin) that remains in a true Christian for the entire time here on earth. But this remaining sin nature no longer dominates the mind, affections or will of one who has been regenerated. The Christian is 'dead to sin' and no longer a bondservant of it. Yet, all his good works are imperfect and thus there is nothing to boast about in them... yet they ARE "good works" nevertheless. A totally depraved sinner cannot do "good works" of any kind. In fact, a sinner naturally hates anything that is good by nature.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#48900 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 4:33 AM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Tom]
Robin Offline

The Boy Wonder

Registered: Thursday, January 3, 2002
Posts: 1019
Loc: Florida, Occupied CSA
Good morning Tom!

Originally Posted By: Tom
... in the Reformed community there is not a consensus on whether or not we are still “totally depraved” or not.
In fact recently I ran into someone who correctly said that we have nothing righteous in ourselves; when God looks at us he sees an “alien righteousness”. He sees Christ’s righteousness not our own righteousness. This is the difference between Reformed “imputed righteousness” and Roman Catholic “imparted righteousness”.


When it comes to justification, the Bible very clearly teaches imputation. Scripture speaks of three imputations:

Adam's sin imputed to us,

Our sin imputed to Christ, and

Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

Thus the doctrine of justification deals with that imputed sin and guilt being fully recompensed, and our standing before the court of God as righteous fully accomplished.

The doctrine of sanctification is one of those "already / not yet" things that is, from our human point of view at least, a process rather than an event. While all that we need for life and godliness has been (past tense) completely provided to us in Christ, we still find ourselves as Paul described in Romans 7:14-25, in this ongoing battle against a "defeated" foe - our old selves, the world, and the devil.

I have learned that winning all these battles is not the point. It is the struggle itself that yields the rewards of increasing "righteousness" in our experience of it here in these corrupted mortal bodies. It is our own human experience of Christ's righteousness while still in these corrupt mortal bodies that is being referred to in sanctification. It "looks like" infused righteousness, as though we are gradually getting more and more "righteous" as we continue to walk in discipleship to Christ.

So justification has to do with our "legal status" in the court of God's justice, while sanctification deals with our experience of Christ while we eagerly await the redemption of our corrupt bodies.

Roman Catholics do not teach imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers (although they do teach a form of imputation regarding Adam's sin being imputed to his descendants in "original sin") because they make no distinction between justification and sanctification. But the two are different things, even though both are part of Christ's fully accomplished work on Earth.

Our bodies remain totally depraved. Every one of us is completely capable of falling into the most gross, habitual, wicked sins imaginable while we live in these bodies. When the Lord redeems our bodies, we will enjoy the freedom from the presence of sin and from it's influence upon our corruptible bodies in a fallen world.



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#48901 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:10 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Robin]
Tom Online   content
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3909
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
But you didn't come up with it Robin, John the Baptist did.
Sorry I couldn't resist. (smiles aren't working)

Tom

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#48902 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:34 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Tom]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13355
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
But you didn't come up with it Robin, John the Baptist did.
Sorry I couldn't resist. (smiles aren't working)

Tom

Hmmmm, smileys aren't working? jawdrop

They are working for me. How did you try and add a smiley. If there is a problem I would appreciate it if you would henceforth report the problem to me or one of the other staff members. grin
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#48903 - Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:37 PM Re: Romans 6, Freed from sin? [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Online   content
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3909
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim

I mistakenly said imparted righteousness instead of the correct term infused righteousness.

What you said, is very helpful.

Thank you

Tom

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