The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins

It is my understanding that the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity is basically the same thing as saying "dead in trespasses and sins” as in what we read in Eph.2:1-5.

Is my understanding correct?

Tom

Yes, dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins is a description of the unregenerate, totally depraved man. That's how Paul describes the natural condition of man negatively. He later, in chapter 4:17-19 describes the unregenerate, natural man positively:

So negatively we see that the natural man has no natural ability to know, or even respond to God nor to do those things which are holy, just and good, and positively, we see that the natural man is active in his depravity and ever increases in its expression in their lives. (cf. Rom 1).

Contra the quote by Michael Horton that was posted today, the Bible and the overwhelming majority of the Church has confessed that man has NO NATURAL ABILITY to relate to God. The natural man will not, because he cannot. And he cannot because he will not... because the natural man is spiritually DEAD; the thoughts and intentions of his heart are evil continually (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Jer 4:22, 13:23; Hos 5:4; Ps 36:1-4; Jh 3:19,20; Rom 9:6-29; et al).

Addendum: I should have added a salient question, but unfortunately I was rushed in my response... sorry.

There are two classic passages spoken by the Lord Christ in the gospel of John which show both the natural inability, and the natural unwillingness of the unregenerate man to desire to be reconciled to God. Can you, Tom, or anyone else provide those two passages?

The Inability of Man
"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him, ..." John 6:44a

The Unwillingness of Man
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved." John 3:20


-Roberta

I think the "inability" would be shown in John 6:44,"no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
I'm still looking for the other one.

RE: RJ & Roger: John 6:44 is definitely the one I was thinking of which shows the "inability" of man re: spiritual things. The word "can" in the original Greek is "dunatai", which literally means, "be able, or "power".

Re: RJ: John 3:20 is a good one but not the exact one I had in mind.

Just to say something different,how about John 8:44a,"You are of your father the devil and your will is to do your father's desires"

Hmmmm, although this was directly specifically to the Pharisees, it is applicable to every other individual as well. It is certainly a salient passage although it isn't the one that I'm thinking of.

Don't give up..... try again!

Taken with the context, I believe John 6:37 is applicable.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Also John 6:65

Tom

Pilgrim

Can you please show me the Horton quote, I have been looking for the past 5 minutes for it with no success.

Thank you
Tom

Here's the quote in the "Quote" forum: HERE

Read the entire quote to see the several places where Horton appears to contradict himself. If think I have read his words incorrectly, please show me.

Actually, I was thinking of John 5:39,40 as one of the best passages that shows man's unwillingness:

John 5:39-40 (ASV) "Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; 40 and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life."

I find his wording to be confusing at best. If he had posted that on this board, I would have asked for clarification.
As it stands, I can only say that it appears you are correct.

Tom

In the Roman 6 thread that is related to this one, I told you that I was having a conversation with a Reformed Christian who believes that as Christians we are still “Totally Depraved”.
I have learned in the last year that I need to pick and choose my fights carefully. In this case, I would probably not even be taking the time to study this issue the way I am if it wasn’t for the fact that the person I am discussing this with is an elder whom I have a lot of respect for in the Church I attend. Even at that, I realize that I must not spend too much more time on this issue; to do so would not only be a waste of time, but also it would be beating a dead horse.
It is his position that at regeneration we are no longer “dead in trespasses and sins”; however, this does not include “Total Depravity”. Which he believes is something else entirely. To say that regeneration includes “total depravity” is to down play in some way the effects of sin in us after regeneration. Regeneration gives us the power to fight sin and turn to Christ through faith, but it has nothing to do with “Total Depravity”.
Previously I had given him a few articles from the Highway written by RC Sproul and AW Pink; to show my position clearer.
He came back to me and said that Pink clearly supports his position and also said that the LBCF clearly supports his position also, as shown below.
http://www.the-highway.com/reg4_Pink.html
He went to say that what he believes is the classic Reformed position and he found out recently in his studies that there is a movement a float that seeks to change the true Reformed position towards the position that I said I believe.
When I read that I remembered that Pilgrim said that what he described is the classic Reformed position.
Although I definitely agree with Pilgrim, I am looking for something tangible to cling to in this matter. What I am going to do with that information, is pray for wisdom for the best way to use it; regardless of whether or not I even talk to him about it again.
Thank you
Tom

Tom,

The quote which you provided by Pink clearly contradicts what this elder friend of yours maintains, i.e., regeneration has no effect on total depravity.

That alone refutes his position, especially the last sentence and this phrase, "it is resisted and hated". Someone who is totally depraved doesn't resist sin but revels in it. And one who is totally depraved certainly doesn't hate sin but rather he loves sin and hates all that is good.

What this elder friend of yours seems to be promoting is the classic Arminian concept of "prevenient grace", but even the Remonstrance believed that after this "ability to overcome one's depravity in order to be able to repent and believe" and consequently regeneration took place, one's total depravity was broken, i.e., it no longer had dominion, which is what Pink and all the Reformed Confessions state.

One thing about Pink, which you probably should take into account is that he was a trichotomist vs. the majority of Christians who are dichotomist, thus he makes much of the "flesh" as being almost another entity that wars against the 'spirit' and 'soul' rather than the 'spirit' and 'soul' being synonymous.

Let's look at what some of the Reformed Confessions teach:

See also the "Fifth Head of Doctrine - The Perseverance of the Saints"

I could also quote from the Westminster Confession, Savoy Declaration and others which ALL teach the same truths are those quoted above. In regeneration there is an ACTUAL and RADICAL change to the nature of man in which the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of man's original fallen state is defeated and changed, albeit not completely eradicated. The regenerated man, out of his renewed (regenerated, born again, born anew, enlivened) nature desires and wills to do that which is good, which previously was impossible due to the inherited sin nature; total depravity. This is NOT a "new movement" to change or deny what the historic Reformed Faith has taught, but rather to AFFIRM what has been taught and recorded in the great Reformation confessions and catechisms.

“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him. John 6.

We have now had a view of the total corruption of man’s nature, and that load of wrath which lies on him, that gulf of misery into which he is plunged in his natural state. But there is one part of his misery that deserves particular consideration; namely, his utter inability to recover himself, the knowledge of which is necessary for the due humiliation of a sinner. What I design here, is only to propose a few things, whereby to convince the unregenerate man of this his inability, that he may see an absolute need of Christ and of the power of His grace.

A man that is fallen into a pit cannot be supposed to help himself out of it, but by one of two ways; either by doing all himself alone, or taking hold of, and improving, the help offered him by others. Likewise an unconverted man cannot be supposed to help himself out of his natural state, but either in the way of the law, or covenant of works, by doing all himself without Christ; or else in the way of the Gospel, or covenant of grace, by exerting his own strength to lay hold upon, and to make use of the help offered him by a Saviour. But, alas! the unconverted man is dead in the pit, and cannot help himself either of these ways; not the first way, for the first text tells us, that when our Lord came to help us, ‘we were without strength,’ unable to recover ourselves. We were ungodly, therefore under a burden of guilt and wrath, yet ‘without strength,’ unable to stand under it; and unable to throw it off, or get from under it: so that all mankind would have undoubtedly perished, had not ‘Christ died for the ungodly,’ and brought help to those who could never have recovered themselves. But when Christ comes and offers help to sinners, cannot they take it? Cannot they improve help when it comes to their hands? No, the second text tells, they cannot; ‘No man can come unto me,’ that is, believe in me (John 6.44), ‘except the Father draw him.’ This is a drawing which enables them to come, who till then could not come; and therefore could not help themselves by improving the help offered. It is a drawing which is always effectual; for it can be no less than ‘hearing and learnIng of the Father,’ which, whoever partakes of, come to Christ (verse 45). Therefore it is not drawing in the way of mere moral suasion, which may be, yea, and always is ineffectual. But it is drawing by mighty power (Eph. 1.9), absolutely necessary for those who have no power in themselves to come and take hold of the offered help.

Hearken then, O unregenerate man, and be convinced that as you are in a most miserable state by nature, so you are utterly unable to recover yourself any way. You are ruined; and what way will you go to work to recover yourself? Which of the two ways will you choose? Will you try it alone, or will you make use of help? Will you fall on the way of works, or on the way of the Gospel? I know very well that you will not so much as try the way of the Gospel, till once you have found the recovery impracticable in the way of the law. Therefore, we shall begin where corrupt nature teaches men to begin, namely, at the way of the law of works.

Sinner, I would have you believe that your working will never effect it. Work, and do your best; you will never be able to work yourself out of this state of corruption and wrath. You must have Christ, else you will perish eternally. It is only ‘Christ in you’ that can be the hope of glory.”

This is an excerpt from an article extracted from Boston’s classic work Human Nature In Its Fourfold State (Chapter 3, pp. 183-197). This text, which was first published in 1720, is now in the public domain and may be freely copied and distributed. The material was scanned and edited by Shane Rosenthal from Reformation Ink.

I firmly believe Michael Horton would agree with all the words above and the entire article written by Thomas Boston published in 1720.