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#4894 - Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:48 PM Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement  

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The other thread about Hell, "please help me understand" has been inactive for a while, and i just wanted to pick out a certain train of thought within it that i dont understand. Concerning Christ's sacrifice for the elect, Pilgrim said: <br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>the "defeat of death" could only be accomplished by the payment owed, which was eternal death. Thus ipso facto, unless Christ suffered eternal punishment, then eternal life, i.e., defeat of death could not have been secured.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I read most of the posts in the thread, but did not see this idea elaborated on. An eternal or infinite amount of something would be never-ending. How could Christ go through infinite punishment in a finite amount of time? No matter how extreme and severe his pain and punishment was, an infinite or eternal punishment would be never ending, by definition.<br><br>Anyone can feel free to respond, thanks.

#4895 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:05 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement  
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Pilgrim,<br><br>What is the difference between what you are saying and what the Word of Faith teachers are saying?<br><br>An article to read and discuss:<br><br>http://www.watchman.org/reltop/rprtldie.htm


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#4896 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:01 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: MarieP]  
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]What is the difference between what you are saying and what the Word of Faith teachers are saying?

[Linked Image] Before I answer your question (yes I read that article), I would like to know why you would think that anything I have ever written is even remotely similar to what these "Word-Faith" teachers are teaching concerning the atonement of Christ? [Linked Image]

In His Grace,



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#4897 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:34 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: Pilgrim]  
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It hasn't been. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. That's why I asked what the difference was: because I know there must be a difference. I consider you a right divider of God's Word. Sorry if it offended.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#4898 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:45 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement  
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Dan,<br><br>The quick and simple answer I have for you is that the Lord Christ was both God and man, thus He in His divinity possessed all the divine attributes. One of the most fundamental aspects of God's deity is that He is "eternal". Now, let me use one of God's other attributes as an illustration of how Christ could endure "eternal punishment" in a moment of our time. The LORD is "Omniscient", is He not? This means that all things are known unto Him simultaneously. This being able to have all knowledge before Him (of course that knowledge derives from Himself) instantaneously is one key to understanding how Christ, the God-man could experience the infinite and eternal wrath of God in a moment of our time, He not being subject to it. Having been subjected to the eternal wrath and punishment for the sins of His people, He was thereby able to cry out, "It is finished". Yes, this does cause a bit of a short circuit in our finite minds when we try to comprehend the infinite. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]<br><br>And to add to this seemingly incomprehensible act, let us not forget that Christ suffered "eternal punishment" multiplied by the total number of the elect for whom He died. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


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#4899 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:53 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: MarieP]  
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sbc_and_reformed,<br><br>Oh.... no offense taken! But I was totally baffled by the question. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] Rather than going into a long drawn-out explanation of the differences between what I hold in regard to the vicarious substitutionary atonement, which can be referenced in most all the Reformed Confessions, especially the Canons of Dort - Second Head of Doctrine, I'll simply say that I am poles apart and in total disagreement with what the "Word-Faith" charlatans teach regarding the person and work of Christ. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


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#4900 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:26 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Thanks for the link and explanation. Now I understand what you were saying. I agree with you [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] You know, when we partake of the Lord's Supper, I have a feeling it is more meaningfuk to those of us who believe in the substitutionary, limited atonement.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#4901 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:34 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: Pilgrim]  

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I think I'm confusing myself by thinking about this more, but I like it. Granting that Christ went through eternal punishment in a finite amount of time, would it not be the same "amount" of punishment regardless of how many elect there are? Infinite punishment multiplied by X number of elect is, after all, infinity. If this were the case it would seem to me that the amount of suffering Christ went through would be the same as it was even if God only redeemed one soul.<br><br>Also, for speculation, if God the Father could inflict eternal punishment upon Christ in a finite amount of time, would it follow that God, if he chose, could deal similarily with the reprobate? Or could it be that that is in fact what happens, only that from a human perspective, it will be like a sequential series of events that is never-ending, whereas for Christ in his divinity, due to a-temporality "finished" it. And along with this, would it imply that in Hell the reprobate would be aware of Christ's eternal suffering for the elect? I'm really confusing myself now.. <br><br>

#4902 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:00 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement  
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Dan,<br><br>So many questions and so little time! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Granting that Christ went through eternal punishment in a finite amount of time, would it not be the same "amount" of punishment regardless of how many elect there are? Infinite punishment multiplied by X number of elect is, after all, infinity. If this were the case it would seem to me that the amount of suffering Christ went through would be the same as it was even if God only redeemed one soul.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps you are confusing "infinite" with "eternal", i.e., "quantity" with "quality"? For example, and yes I am painfully aware that illustrations used to explain things of this nature most often fail miserably and are woefully inadequate, if there were 10 people who each owed an "infinite" amount of money, for the debt of all ten to be paid in full, then the amount would be each one's "infinite amount" x 10. The fact that the punishment for not paying that debt was hard labour for eternity is an entirely different matter. And, it is to this part which I tried to give a reply. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Also, for speculation, if God the Father could inflict eternal punishment upon Christ in a finite amount of time, would it follow that God, if he chose, could deal similarly with the reprobate?</font><hr></blockquote><p>I think I understand what you are asking here. And if so, the answer would be a definite, No! Why? Because the reprobate are "finite" beings who are subject to time. Thus whatever occurs with them can only be experienced in time. Thus for a created being, their punishment will be unending, as so says the Scripture. (cf. Mark 9:43) Also, consider that the if it were true that the reprobate would suffer their "eternal punishment" in but a moment of time, say compressed somehow, then the same must be true of the "eternal life" experienced by the elect in heaven (new heaven and new earth). (cf. Matt 25:46)<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]would it imply that in Hell the reprobate would be aware of Christ's eternal suffering for the elect?</font><hr></blockquote><p>I would say no to this one too. The anguish being experienced by the reprobate will be sufficient to occupy their time. And, depending upon how much one wishes to push the parable of "Lazarus and the Rich man" (cf. Lk 6:19ff), it would seem that those in hell will continually deny the sufficiency of Christ and their own need of him. In short, as Joe elsewhere pointed out, the reprobate will eternally deny their own sinfulness and the righteous judgment of God upon them as their depravity will not be removed but rather remain in them.<br><br>In His Grace,


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#4903 - Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:19 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: Pilgrim]  

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>if there were 10 people who each owed an "infinite" amount of money, for the debt of all ten to be paid in full, then the amount would be each one's "infinite amount" x 10<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Infinity times 1 is still infinity, Infinity times 2 is infinity, etc... But I may understand your point. Duration and degree? Would you say the duration of punishment would be the same(infinite) regardless of how many elect are atoned for, yet the degree of punishment would be different?<br><br>I agree that the reprobate will always be in a state of sin and at enmity with God in Hell, but was speculating as to whether, granting that Christ underwent "infinite" punishment in Hell in the stead of the elect, from the perspective of the reprobate, who are not a-temporal, Christ's infinite punishment would be underway right at the same time as well. Besides the point if they would notice or what they would feel about him.

#4904 - Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:06 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: Pilgrim]  
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How would you relate Romans 14:10-12 to how the reprobate will respond to God during and after the Judgement?<br><br>10 ...For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. <br>11 For it is written,<br> "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,<br> AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." <br>12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. <br>


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#4905 - Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:39 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: MarieP]  
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sbc_and_reformed,<br><br>Sorry if I pop your bubble, the Romans 14:10-12 is speaking specifically of believers. The "all" in vs. 11 is qualified by the context of the chapter in which Paul is speaking of the conflicts that existed between the brethren in matters of adiaphora (things indifferent, e.g., food, drink, celebration of days, etc.).<br><br>There is no indication that the nature of the reprobate will be changed before, during nor after the Judgment. Thus they will forever reject any necessity of needing a Saviour and particularly by faith in Christ. In the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, it seems that the rich man is adamant about rejecting God's method of salvation and continually suggests his own ideas of how his relatives could be saved. The reprobate in hell may very well bow before God as their Creator, but inwardly they will continue to curse Him as being unjust and excusing themselves for all and every sin.<br><br>In His Grace,


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#4906 - Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:52 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: Pilgrim]  
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This isn't a reply, but just a compliment on the "last 24 hours" selection that you have on this board. Great Idea


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#4907 - Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:58 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement [Re: gnarley]  
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<center>[Linked Image]<br>[color:purple]It is our pleasure to serve you!</font color=purple></center>


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#4908 - Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:43 PM Re: Regarding hell, punishment, Christ's atonement  
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Dan,<br><br>Let me add one aspect which I feel is essential to keep in the forefront of any discussion about the duration and/or degree of Christ's suffering.<br><br>The sufferings of Christ and those which justice would have required the elect to suffer for their sin, had He not suffered them vicariously, can never be compared, by created beings, in either a quantitative or qualitative fashion, [color:blue]because of the infinite gulf between the natures of Christ and the redeemed.</font color=blue> One simply cannot find an algorithm to correlate the two sufferings, because the parties involved cannot be correlated. Of course Jesus in every way--save sin--shares our humanity. But His sinlessness actually would have made His punishment inconceivably more grievous for Him than for any of us; because when a sinner is punished, the conscience can make no just complaint, knowing that justice is being served, but for Christ, the Holy One of God, the punishment was completely undeserved. And the culmination of His passion, the beloved Son being forsaken by the Father, is a crushing blow that none else can ever suffer, for who but Christ had delighted for all eternity to do the will of the Father, glorying in His loving countenance? His grief at being forsaken simply cannot be measured by created beings, and sinners as well.<br><br><blockquote>Tell me, you who hear Him groaning, was there ever grief like His?<br>Friends through fear His cause disowning, foes insulting His distress.<br>Many hands were raised to wound Him, none would interpose to save;<br>But the deepest stroke that pierced Him was the stroke that Justice gave.<br><br>You who think of sin but lightly nor suppose its evil great<br>Here may view its nature rightly, here its guilt may estimate;<br>Mark the Sacrifice appointed, see who bears the awful load.<br>'Tis the Word, the Lord's Anointed, Son of Man and Son of God.<br><br>Thomas Kelly, 1804: Stricken, Smitten, And Afflicted</blockquote>


In Christ,
Paul S
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