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#49036 - Tuesday, August 7, 2012 8:12 PM Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology *****
TamaraSlack Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Sunday, August 5, 2012
Posts: 2
Loc: Columbus, OH
Whew! If that isn't a great title huh?

Hello! New here. I'll do another thread introducing myself, but for now, I need help!

I have friends who are into New Covenant Theology (they don't know that though) who follow the teachings of Paul Washer, John Piper, Charles Leiter, etc.

I am trying to explain that these men teach neonomianism (new law; in other words, OT law was fulfilled, but Jesus gave a new law as seen in the Sermon on the Mount). The one friend I am trying to explain it to is not getting it at all.

I am wondering if anyone has links, videos, ANYTHING that will be concise and show that Christ did not bring a new law. It's like this: instead of the message of the Bible being LAW-GOSPEL-GRACE or GUILT-GRACE-GRATITUDE is another way to put it, they see it as O.T. LAW-GOSPEL-N.T. LAW

I hope that makes sense. We, as believers are to see our sin by way of the Law of God (makes us understand we our misery) then we receive the Gospel (makes us understand we were paid for by Christ's active obedience) and then we are grateful (out of our gratitude, we then obey).

Okay, so with all that said, I'm not finding a whole lot on people speaking against New Covenant Theology which leads to New Law (neonomianism) which then leads to extra burdens such as:

can't drink
can't smoke
can't cuss
etc.

But worse, still! It leads to things like "can't say darn 'cuz that's a word that replaced damn and if we say damn then we are not holy." I am seeing NCT as REALLY HORRIFIC stuff and infiltrating churches (a lot coming from Paul Washer and followers, little known Charles Leiter, and of course, John Piper). It lays heavy burdens on believers and a complete mess of sanctification, making sanctification more on the believer than on the Spirit of God.

Now, with all that said, lay it on me lol. Please! I do need help here. I can't seem to get all this together and find enough resources to make my case.

Any help would be appreciated!
_________________________
Forgiven much,
Tamara Slack

Lord's Day 1
Q: "What is your only comfort in life and in death?"
A: "That I am not my own, but belong - body and soul, in life and in death - to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ."

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#49037 - Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:12 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13390
Loc: NH, USA
You could start by looking at this short thread on New Covenant Theology. I have one response in that thread that might be of some help. grin

Remember this basic and fundamental truth, which the apostle James wrote under the divine inspiration of the Bible: James 4:12 (ASV) "One [only] is the lawgiver and judge, [even] he who is able to save and to destroy: but who art thou that judgest thy neighbor?." (cf. Jh 5:22,30; 8:16,18; 12:49,50 and cp. Heb 12:21-26)

Also, there are some excellent articles on this subject here: Praxis - The Doctrine of the Christian Life.

Lastly....

_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#49038 - Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:27 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
TamaraSlack Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Sunday, August 5, 2012
Posts: 2
Loc: Columbus, OH
Thanks Pilgrim. I actually went to the first link you gave before I posted. I'll go back later to see it again. I went to the 2nd link for a sec and glanced. Great info! But what I am looking for is something that will link Paul Washer, Leiter, and Piper (or any of them) with neonomianism / NCT. I'm not finding any writings about this. Or, I'll even settle for the bad stuff about neo / NCT that is concise and then I will link these preachers to the writing.

(It may be that I am just going to have to do the writing myself - ugh! I really don't want to do all that work. Plus, I have people trying to cut my head off already for even touching their anointed ones - anytime I speak of Driscoll, Washer, etc. I'm met with "what????!!!! they are orthodox, nothing is wrong with them!!!" *sigh*)

Thanks...
_________________________
Forgiven much,
Tamara Slack

Lord's Day 1
Q: "What is your only comfort in life and in death?"
A: "That I am not my own, but belong - body and soul, in life and in death - to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ."

Top
#49039 - Wednesday, August 8, 2012 5:38 AM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13390
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: TamaraSlack
But what I am looking for is something that will link Paul Washer, Leiter, and Piper (or any of them) with neonomianism / NCT.

I guess my first question would be, Why do you think that these men embrace NCT or neonomianism? What have you heard them say or read that they perhaps wrote that would have you come to this conclusion? Just curious. grin

Would you agree that the definition below is accurate enough and coincides with your definition? If not, then could you state the definition that you are working with? That would be a big help.

Quote:
Neonomianism in Christian theology, literally meaning "new law," is the doctrine that the Gospel presents a new law, the requirements of which are faith and repentance. This view is most often associated with the theology of Richard Baxter (1615-1691).

Opponents believe neonomianism changes the free Gospel offer into an understanding of salvation by works; i.e., humanity is not saved by Christ but by their obedience to Christ through their faith and repentance.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#49040 - Wednesday, August 8, 2012 9:12 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3940
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
My only knowledge of Paul Washer is a series of sermons on marriage that my pastor gave me. I found them to be very biblical and helpful in my own marriage.

Part 1: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=2309173519]


Part 2: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=24091234171


Part 3: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=25091010122



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#49042 - Wednesday, August 8, 2012 11:36 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3940
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tamara said
Quote:
can't drink
can't smoke
can't cuss
etc.


Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the occasional glass of wine and although I can't understand why any Christian would want to smoke, seeing they know the harmful effects it has on our bodies. I don't want to say that it ranks in the category of "sin".
However, "can't cuss", I would definitely agree with that. For even unbelievers deep down know that it is wrong. I am not surprised when I hear unbelievers cuss, but it disturbs me when I hear so called Christians cuss.
When a non-Christian knows we are Christians; they look to see if there is anything different about us and when they hear us cuss, they look at us as hypocrites and we lose credibility in their eyes.

Tom


Edited by Tom (Wednesday, August 8, 2012 11:37 PM)

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#49059 - Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:46 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: Pilgrim]
Relztrah Offline
Member

Registered: Tuesday, May 31, 2005
Posts: 151
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: Pilgrim

I guess my first question would be, Why do you think that these men embrace NCT or neonomianism? What have you heard them say or read that they perhaps wrote that would have you come to this conclusion? Just curious. grin

Ditto. I have a friend who is a great admirer of Paul Washer and suggested that I listen to his messages on the HeartCry Missionary Society website. I listened to a few, found them to be sound theologically and very challenging. There was no mention of a new covenant or anything that sounded like new covenant theology in the few messages I heard from this gentleman. I'm not trying to defend Paul Washer because I don't know his teaching and beliefs thoroughly. But I also wonder what you have heard or read from him that causes you to associate him with a heterodox teaching.
_________________________
Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

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#49229 - Monday, October 15, 2012 11:11 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
TheExegete Offline

Plebeian

Registered: Monday, October 15, 2012
Posts: 12
Loc: Northeast America
I tell you TamaraSlack,

I am incredibly familiar with John Piper, Paul Washer, and to a lesser (but still knowledgable degree) of Mark Driscoll. And while I would not recommend Driscoll or Piper (unless, you listen to or read Piper's earlier works), I would highly recommend Paul Washer to anyone. The term you are referring to for Paul Washer is not neonomianism (that's a first for me!), but rather "Lordship Salvation" is what Mr. Washer teaches.

For Luke 9 reads,
"23 And He was saying to them all, " If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
24 "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. [Luke 9:23-24]

This is the crux upon which the Gospel rests with us. Christ would say that His family is them who do the will of God (Matt 12:47-50). I agree that these works will not attain Heaven for anyone, because God freely elects whomever He will (Rom 9:16), but rather, it is critical of us to understand that in God's covenant to renew the hearts of His own, that He would give us hearts that not only could hear His voice (Jn 10:27), but hearts that would obey Him (Rom 6:1-7) [however mixed with failure; and it will be, for we are not free completely from sin!].

I hope I haven't further complicated things; but while I don't agree with ALL things Paul Washer says; I know that he is firmly Biblical and a man who, very well, understands grace.

Humbly,
TheExegete
_________________________
"Exegesis": n. pl. critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.
"Critical": adj. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------
Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
[2 Cor 5:9]

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#49230 - Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:32 AM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TheExegete]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13390
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: TheExegete
I am incredibly familiar with John Piper, Paul Washer, and to a lesser (but still knowledgable degree) of Mark Driscoll. And while I would not recommend Driscoll or Piper (unless, you listen to or read Piper's earlier works), I would highly recommend Paul Washer to anyone. The term you are referring to for Paul Washer is not neonomianism (that's a first for me!), but rather "Lordship Salvation" is what Mr. Washer teaches.

First of all, Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board.

Secondly, I would be in agreement with your 'reluctance' to recommend such individuals as John Piper or Mark Driscoll.

Thirdly, for me the 'committee' is still out on Paul Washer. I have listened to some of his sermons and as far as the basics of soteriology (salvation) goes, he appears to be solid, i.e., biblically consistent with the Gospel and Calvinistic thought on that subject. However, I have also watched a couple of videos that raised some serious concerns as to what he believes outside the narrow confines of the Gospel proper. To put my concerns in very succinct terms, I am wondering if Paul Washer is a "New Calvinist"? Simply, does Paul Washer hold to and teach the infamous "Five Points of Calvinism" but not separation from the world? I hear him emphasize "being" a Christian vs. "doing" those things which are required of Christians. In one video, I saw and heard him speaking at some "Hip-Hop" conference where he encouraged those involved in this type of worldly, fleshly, devilish music to continue using it in the church. It is these type of things which have me concerned.

Now, since you are "incredibly familiar" with Paul Washer, can you share what you know about his teaching in regard to the place of the moral law of God, including the 4th Commandment, in the Christian life?

Oh, and if you are not familiar with this new movement, called "New Calvinism", there are several excellent articles on it on The Highway which you can find HERE, at the bottom of the page. There is one particular article which caused no little stir and the author, Dr. Peter Masters, to be tarred and feathered, (verbally of course) for mentioning names of those involved. You can read that article HERE.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#49245 - Monday, October 22, 2012 12:02 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
EternallyHis Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Thursday, October 18, 2012
Posts: 4
Loc: Arizona U.S.A
I would also love to hear more on this topic...thanks for posting...

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#49246 - Monday, October 22, 2012 12:07 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: EternallyHis]
EternallyHis Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Thursday, October 18, 2012
Posts: 4
Loc: Arizona U.S.A
Just read the responses to my question...I get it ...thanks

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#49274 - Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:38 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: Pilgrim]
TheExegete Offline

Plebeian

Registered: Monday, October 15, 2012
Posts: 12
Loc: Northeast America
Pilgrim,

First: thank you for your greeting, and I apologize for taking so long in replying to this, as I took some time to read what you said, and more about the subject in general.

Second, I want to apologize; not for anything you would know of, but initially after reading this post (and eventually, I really did, spend time reading about this, etc), I reacted in pride. It had the same effect on me Dr. Masters' article had at the mention of John MacArthur's name. The goal here is not for any of us to act or react in pride, but to humbly seek to edify one another: in this I failed, and I hope you accept my apology.

Third, now that I am more familiar with "New Calvinism" and have considered these things, alongside MacArthur, Washer, et al... I'd like to give a better response, one more in the true spirit of humility, and not simply "know it all-ism."

With regards to Paul Washer, I now understand why the jury is still out for you; however, I would like to attempt to share my opinion of him. I actually don't think he falls into the New Calvinist movement, simply because he rejects these men in large part (with perhaps the exception of Piper (don't know where he stands today though). From the time I've listened to Mr. Washer I've heard him preach almost nothing but separation from the world. In fact, it was his "Shocking Youth Message" that sent shock waves (apparently) through the internet, for telling a group of teens and young adults (that are Churchgoers) that they look just like the world, and should consider if they are truly in the faith.

I also heard the same message to "reformed rappers" and I am a bit dissapointed to hear him encourage them to continue to rap for God's glory. Although, I am currently working out my understanding of all this contemporary worship vs classic worship (for lack of better terms), I would give Washer the benefit of the doubt here, because he vehemently rejects worldliness, but perhaps like myself, needs his understanding of how far the worldliness reaches, increased.

In regards to moral law, I apologize, but I do not know what his understanding of the fourth commandment is. But certainly I count him as a good teacher of the word, as I would image he wanted to simply encourage these men to do something for God that wasn't being done, or something that he saw was being perverted with lyrics from the pit of hell, rather than used to glorify God (and probably on the basis of 1 Cor 10:31).

But this is all I have for now, and I hope it is coherant (since I am a bit distracted by children, and such). I look forward to your reply, and sharing and learning (through agreement and civil disagreements, I'm sure). But most of all, I hope you do accept my apology. Blessings brother, and thank you for a site like this; it really is awesome!

TheExegete (Chris)


Edited by TheExegete (Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:45 PM)
_________________________
"Exegesis": n. pl. critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.
"Critical": adj. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------
Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
[2 Cor 5:9]

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#49276 - Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:44 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TheExegete]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13390
Loc: NH, USA
Chris,

Apology accepted with great joy! grin

Re: Paul Washer. Perhaps he needs to learn and grow as we all do in the particular area of worship; both personal and corporate. Since these have been the days of the infamous "worship wars", and since I am dogmatically a creedalist and biblical traditionalist, anything that smacks of "contemporary worship" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand tall (I wish the hair was on the top of my head instead giggle). At best, the "New Calvinist" movement is a half-truth, which has been aptly said by someone many years ago, is worse than no truth because it is very effective at deceiving people. How a person lives is nothing less than a reflection of what a person believes... more so, what a person IS (Prov 23:7). And nothing is more expressive of what a person believes about God than worship; the high calling to which all image bearers of God are called to do in spirit and in truth.

Those elders/pastors who are allowing and even leading those who profess to be followers of Christ into these worldly exercises of idolatrous worship should be humbly grateful that God has not chosen at this time to deal with them as he did Nadab and Abihu (Lev 10:1,2; Num 3:4; 26:61). Doubtless, they will be called to give an account for their worldliness and leading the sheep astray.

There are quite a number of excellent articles on The Highway website that deal with this issue of worship, which if you haven't discovered them yet you can find them HERE.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#49284 - Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:42 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
TheExegete Offline

Plebeian

Registered: Monday, October 15, 2012
Posts: 12
Loc: Northeast America
Hello friends!!

I listened to a Paul Washer sermon recently, that I think (hopefully) might clear up some (not all) of the questions about his theology, which should further remove him far far away from the new Calvinist group (where he and macarthur stand distinctively from Piper, Driscoll, et all). Let me know what you think. smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBeT5Aef0_I
"Do You Bear Fruit?"
_________________________
"Exegesis": n. pl. critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.
"Critical": adj. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------
Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
[2 Cor 5:9]

Top
#49389 - Saturday, December 8, 2012 10:46 PM Re: Charles Leiter, Paul Washer, Neonomianism & New Cov. Theology [Re: TamaraSlack]
mjnathan Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Thursday, December 6, 2012
Posts: 1
Loc: California, USA
Hello Tamara. Paul Washer and Charles Leiter are 2 of my favorite teachers. Any one searching for true biblically based teachings cannot do better than to listen to or read the teachings of these 2 men.

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