The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Jonathan Edwards

Hi
We have discussed John Piper and his so called “Christian Hedonism” on this board in the past. Like Pilgrim, I believe the term “Christian Hedonism” is an oxymoron; they actually cancel each other out.
Piper claims that Christian hedonism is not new with him; in fact he claims that Jonathan Edwards was a Christian Hedonist.
Pilgrim said in the past that Piper has misrepresented Jonathan Edwards and although I am inclined to agree with him. I must admit that after looking into the claims of Piper concerning Edwards; I am still left not knowing what to think.
I have looked at some of the quotes and writing Piper uses from Edwards for his claims and I am not sure what to think.
I have asked a knowledgeable Reformed friend who is not a Piper fan, especially after all the controversy concerning Piper in the last few years. Yet despite his not being a fan of Piper, he told me that based on what he has read of Edwards, he believes that Piper is correct.
I was actually surprised of my friend’s response, so I decided to e-mail a Reformed Baptist theologian, hoping that he might be able to shed some light on the subject. I was actually a little surprised to receive a reply back from him. However his response was too brief to be of much help. His reply was that it was very clear Edwards was definitely a “Christian Hedonist”; at least how the term was meant. It was also quite clear he was getting a little tired of the issue.
My interest in this particular issue isn’t whether or not Edward’s was right or wrong on the issue. None of are right on every single issue; least of all me.
However, I find it rather odd that even some people who believe “Christian Hedonism” is un-biblical believe that Edwards was a “Christian Hedonist”. Though they rightly say that Edward’s doesn’t use the term himself.
On my part I think part of my confusion is because some of Edward’s writing is always easy for me to understand.
If you think you might have something to contribute concerning Edward’s and his so called belief in “Christian Hedonism” I welcome it.
This is not the only reason why I am trying to get more information on this issue; but I think if this is answered other things will take care of themselves.
Thank you
Tom

Oy vey.... here we go again!

What I can tell you Tom; iterating what I have already written to you in the past, is that in my reading of Jonathan Edwards, there is NOTHING that aligns with nor could it be considered similar to Piper's heretical view of "Christian Hedonism". Further, in all that I have read on Edwards by other scholars, from biographies to technical works, there was absolutely no mention of Edwards' theology that would even come close to Piper's view(s). Lastly, in the writings of the late Dr. John Gerstner, who was indisputably a recognized scholar on Jonathan Edwards, there is nothing remotely similar to Piper's "Christian Hedonism".

As with most every heretical view that is brought into the Church, the protagonists invariably claim to find support in the official Confessions of the church, if it has one, and/or cite quotes from recognized 'scholars' that they insist support their view. But, if one reads the source from which the quotes are found IN CONTEXT, most always they do not provide any support to the claim(s) made. Further, when one takes what the quoted author wrote elsewhere on related subjects, it becomes even clearer that the claims of the heretics are baseless. There are occasions where a quoted author contradicts himself but in such instances, due to the inconsistency of the author, any weight the source might have in giving validity to the aberrant view goes down.

I need only point to how many, some even in recent times, have run to John Calvin to support their heretical ideas, e.g., a rejection of the perpetuity of the 4th Commandment based upon the silly notion that John Calvin bowled on Sunday. Or, that John Calvin held to a universal atonement, ala Kendall. Or, that John Calvin's writings support Federal Vision.

So, once again... not claiming to be an expert on Jonathan Edwards, but one who has read quite a bit of his writings, I find NOTHING in Edwards' works that would lend support to the unbiblical view of John Piper's "Christian Hedonism"; as you say an oxymoron just in the phrase itself.

The proverbial ball is in your court, Tom. The ONLY way you are ever going to be settled on this matter, in all honesty, is to READ Edwards for yourself, in context, of course. Then you can make a personal and informed decision whether Jonathan Edwards believed and taught what Piper has termed, "Christian Hedonism".

Pilgrim said:



As I said before I have read some of the writings of Jonathan Edwards myself. Yet, I am still left not knowing what to think.
I think that is mainly because of the style he writes in.

I thought I would also state that the Highway is the only place that I have found (though most places don't/or will not speak to the issue) where they don't agree with Piper about Jonathan Edwards and "Christian Hedonism"; this despite the fact that some of them are opposed to Christian Hedonism.

So perhaps I am not meant to know the truth on the issue about Edwards?
Perhaps I should be content believing that Christian Hedonism is not biblical; which is really the bottom line anyway.
Tom

IF I were you, this is where I would be content to rest at this point. Whether Edwards actually believed and/or taught such a view as Piper's "Christian Hedonism" is academic and a mute point. As you rightly wrote, Scripture is the final arbitrator as to God's truth and the glasses through which all things are to be judged.

I think I will take your advice. I do however wonder (other than yourself, that I am aware of) why Reformed Christians are not speaking out about John Piper misrepresenting Jonathan Edwards.
To be sure some speak out against Christian Hedonism, but not his claim about Jonathan Edwards.
This really baffles me.

Tom

Far be it from me to speculate as to why there are those who allegedly oppose Piper's "Christian Hedonism" (I cringe every time I see this phrase) do not likewise reject the assertion that Piper is only iterating a teaching of Jonathan Edwards. I am more than content to oppose any such idea regardless how many others disagree. To suggest that Edwards believed that God is most glorified by anything that exists in fallen mankind or anything that professing Christians do is absurd. Even a cursory reading of Edwards' "The Freedom of the Will" should dispel any such notion.

Pilgrim

The other day, I received a belated e-mail from a Reformed ministry that I made an enquiry about concerning Jonathan Edwards. He asked me to give him a call and today I did just that.
First thing he told me is that he isn't really a fan of John Piper and although he really doesn't know a lot about "Christian Hedonism", mainly because he has never seen a need to look into it. He definitely does not like the term and the only reason he can possibly think of why Piper would even use the term is for shock value.
I asked him if he would call “Christian Hedonism” heresy and his response was that he would not go that far.
As to Jonathan Edwards; he told me that he isn't actually a fan of him, or even the 1st Great Awakening; except to say that it was a lot better than the so called 2nd Great Awakening.
The reason why I am sharing this with you is not necessarily that I agreed with everything he said (I did enjoy our conversation). It is however typical of the kind of answers I have received from those who responded to my enquiries.
I will say however, that although I haven’t read a lot of Edward’s, I like what I have read; especially his sermon ‘Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God’. Actually I am not sure “like” is the right word. Perhaps the word “convicting” would be a better word.
If I had more time with him, I would have asked him why he wasn’t a big fan of Jonathan Edwards.
Tom

Jonathan Edwards, was without question just a man no different than you or me. But it is indisputable that God mightly gifted that man with a superior intelligence and a love for God that is rarely seen among men. He is often referred to as the greatest theologian in American history. And it is also true that Edwards was chosen as an instrument of God to bring many sinners to a true union with Christ through his preaching and teaching.

If I was half the man of God that Edwards was, I would probably be 10 times the man of God I am today.

I like the way you are thinking and to be honest when I think about Jonathan Edwards I think the same way you do.
I can't quite understand why he isn't a fan of Jonathan Edwards. Other than to say that I now have seen Charismatic’s justify Charismania on Jonathan Edwards writing and Piper justify "C...H..." (For your benefit ;)) on the writing of Jonathan Edwards.

Perhaps he doesn't like how Edwards writes, because of this kind of thing. Then again James Hunt claims CH Spurgeon wasn't a Calvinist. I wonder what he thinks of Spurgeon? I know the answer to that, seeing how he often has Spurgeon material on his site.
I guess I shouldn't speculate.
Tom