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Matthew 12:40 #50241
Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:46 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:46 PM
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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50242
Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:01 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:01 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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So what exactly is the issue with "6th day crucifixion folks" and the "three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40"? shrug

I'm not familiar with these folks, so perhaps if you would kindly share what it is they believe vs. what the historic confessional view of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ it might prove to be helpful to some of us like myself who aren't familiar with them. grin


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #50246
Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:20 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:20 PM
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rstrats Offline OP
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Pilgrim,

re: "So what exactly is the issue with '6th day crucifixion folks'..."

They say that the 3 nights specified in Matthew 12:40 actually means 2 nights.


re: "I'm not familiar with these folks..."

At the risk of sounding flippant (maybe the wrong word) I don't see how that is possible - they're all over the place.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50249
Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:58 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:58 PM
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Posts: 3,042
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Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board rstrats. Glad to have you join us. You will find more information about who and what we are and rules on participating in the group in the FAQ section above.

I have to also say that I do not understand your question either. Who are these folks? Are they dispensationalists? I guess we need more information to go on.

Thank you.


The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50250
Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:32 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:32 PM
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In reverse order:

1. It IS possible since I am not familiar with the term designating such a group. Not being omniscient, there are things which I do not know. And given that there are myriad views held by myriad groups and individuals, it is a fact that I cannot and do not know them all.

2. Now on to the subject at hand, i.e., a proper exegesis of Matt 12:40. Again, I'm sure there are numerous ideas that people have in regard to this text, of which only one is correct, since the Bible is inspired; inerrant and infallible. I share my view with William Hendriksen, one of the great conservative, Reformed NT scholars. After having briefly discussed the correlation between Jonah being swallowed by a large 'sea monster' and having spent 3 days and 3 nights in its belly and the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Christ; Jonah's experience being typological and Christ's experience being antitypical of it, he wrote:

Quote:
Exactly how, in the case of Jonah, these three days and three nights were computed Scripture nowhere reveals. Were they three entire days and nights, seventy-two hours in all, or was the period of his stay in the belly of the “fish” one entire day plus parts of two other days? We do not know. We do know that in Esther 4:16 the third day cannot have been an entire day (see 5:1, “on the third day,” not “after the third day”). See also the apocryphal book Tobit 3:12, 13. To say, therefore, that in order to do justice to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have been in the grave three entire days plus three entire nights is unreasonable. It is contrary to Jewish usage of such terms.

Nevertheless, again and again—sometimes in small pamphlets—the opinion will be advocated that according to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have died and been buried on Thursday. This, however, is definitely wrong, for the inspired records tell us that these events took place on Friday, that is, on Paraskeue, this very word being used even in modern Greek to indicate Friday (Mark 15:42, 43; Luke 23:46, 54; John 19:14, 30, 42). Also, if the proponents of this “Jesus was buried on Thursday afternoon” theory demand that “three days” means three entire days, their theory will still fall short; and, on the other hand, if, as they see it, a part of a day must be figured as a day, the result is: too many days!

Neither is it entirely satisfactory to say that, while Jesus died indeed on Friday and rose again on Sunday morning, the solution is to be found in the fact that, as already proved, the Jews counted a part of the day as equal to a day, and a part of the night as amounting to a night. As far as the “days” are concerned, this would be a satisfactory explanation, but it would still leave us with only two nights, not three.

What then? Some, despairing of a solution, declare that the saying, though having been a part of the Gospel from the beginning, is spurious, never having been uttered by Jesus himself. There is, however, no good reason thus to cut the Gordian knot. The true solution probably lies in a different direction. When we say “the universe,” the ancients would say “heaven and earth.” So also, should not their expression “one day and one night” be taken to mean one time unit, one diurnal period, a part of one such period being taken as a whole? He was indeed in the heart of the earth three “days-and-three- nights,” that is during three of these time units.

Methinks Hendriksen has been extremely faithful to the text and that his understanding is the correct one. What do you think?


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #50251
Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:36 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:36 PM
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Pilgrim,

re: "It IS possible since I am not familiar with the term designating such a group."

I'm sorry. It's just that I've never come across anyone who hasn't heard of those (the majority of Christians actually) who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.


re: "Now on to the subject at hand, i.e., a proper exegesis of Matt 12:40."

Actually, the purpose of the OP is to find - if it exists - some writing from the first century or before that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50252
Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:14 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:14 PM
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Posts: 13,840
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Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted By: rstrats

Actually, the purpose of the OP is to find - if it exists - some writing from the first century or before that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.

Hendriksen did quote several sources from Scripture and from one of the apocryphal books, Tobit to show exactly that, did he not?

Quote:
Exactly how, in the case of Jonah, these three days and three nights were computed Scripture nowhere reveals. Were they three entire days and nights, seventy-two hours in all, or was the period of his stay in the belly of the “fish” one entire day plus parts of two other days? We do not know. We do know that in Esther 4:16 the third day cannot have been an entire day (see 5:1, “on the third day,” not “after the third day”). See also the apocryphal book Tobit 3:12, 13. To say, therefore, that in order to do justice to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have been in the grave three entire days plus three entire nights is unreasonable. It is contrary to Jewish usage of such terms.

Is there something wrong with his sources? scratch1


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #50254
Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:37 PM
Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:37 PM
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Missouri
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rstrats Offline OP
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Pilgrim,

re: "Is there something wrong with his sources?"

Nothing in the the Esther passages precludes at least a part of each one of the days and at least a part of each one of the nights. Also, I don't see what the Tobit reference has to do with days and nights.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50272
Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:25 PM
Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:25 PM
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Posts: 13,840
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1) 12 "Ate not nor drank for three days and three nights," and yet in the very next verse, "Then on the third day," the fast being ended. Similarly Esther 4:16 compared with 5:1. "Three days and three nights" is, therefore, not proverbial for "a brief time," nor can we say that Jesus is concerned only to obtain a parallel experience to that of Jonah as far as the number of days is concerned. The manner of numbering nights with the days is an idiomatic Jewish usage. As Jonah escaped on the third day, so Jesus arose on the third day. And since the Jewish day begins with the night (or evening), it is the night that forms part of the first day which seems to be overcounted, not the one that forms part of the third day - the Sunday of the resurrection began at dusk on Saturday.

2) Would you then conclude that Hendriksen's exegesis of Matt 12:40 re: the "days" of Christ being in the tomb is incorrect?

3) I would be interested in having you state what your view is on this subject. You have only stated that you reject the view that the majority of Evangelicals espouse (* few if any of the members here belong to that group). And, you have apparently rejected what Hendriksen and myself hold to be true, which your answer to #2 will either affirm or deny. But you haven't given us what your view is and the ramifications of it vs. the view held by myself and Hendriksen.

4) Yes, I believe that "heart of the earth" means the grave or tomb. What do you think it means?


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50275
Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:54 PM
Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:54 PM
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rstrats Offline OP
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Pilgrim,

re: "1) 12"

To what is the "12" referring?


re: "The manner of numbering nights with the days is an idiomatic Jewish usage."

And that is why I started this topic. If the 6th day crucifixion proponents are correct in their assertion that Matthew 12:40 is a common Jewish idiom where at least a part of a specified day and/or at least a part of a specified night does not actually have to exist, I would think that there would be at least one example to back up that assertion.



re: "Would you then conclude that Hendriksen's exegesis of Matt 12:40 re: the 'days' of Christ being in the tomb is incorrect?"

I'm not prepared to say that it IS correct because his suggestion that one day and one night might be taken to mean one time unit where at least a portion of the day and/or at least a portion of the night did not have to actually be involved has not yet been demonstrated with some actual writing from the period.



re: "I would be interested in having you state what your view is on this subject."

Because I'm not aware of any scripture that absolutely, positively, no question about it, requires the crucifixion to have occurred on the 6th day of the week, and since I've yet to see any "idiom" to the contrary, I see no reason to think that when the Messiah said 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights.



re: "Yes, I believe that 'heart of the earth' means the grave or tomb. What do you think it means?"

I think that is indeed what it means.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50289
Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:02 AM
Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:02 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted By: rstrats
Because I'm not aware of any scripture that absolutely, positively, no question about it, requires the crucifixion to have occurred on the 6th day of the week, and since I've yet to see any "idiom" to the contrary, I see no reason to think that when the Messiah said 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights.

Unfortunately, that doesn't answer my question re: ramifications of your view. From my standpoint, still admitting I am not familiar with this "6th day" view, much to your chagrin, since it is well established that the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday and the historic view of the crucifixion is that it occurred on Friday, your only choice would be to hold that the crucifixion actually occurred on Thursday. Would that be your position?

1. IF that is correct, what would be its significance vs. the historic view?

2. IF that is correct, who else besides yourself holds to this position?


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #50290
Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:04 PM
Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:04 PM
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Pilgrim,

re: " From my standpoint, still admitting I am not familiar with this '6th day' view..."
re: "...the crucifixion... occurred on Friday..."

You say you're not familiar with the idea of a 6th day of the week crucifixion. But then you go on to indicate that you are. What am I missing?


re: "...it is well established that the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week..."

There is only one verse (Mark 16:9) - as the KJV has it - that places the resurrection on the first day of the week. And that verse is by no means a slam dunk because many good study Bibles question whether the verse is authoritative or punctuated correctly.



re: "...the historic view of the crucifixion is that it occurred on Friday..."

Historic in the sense that that has been the majority opinion. But there are also historic opinions that the 6th day was not the day of the crucifixion.



re: "...your only choice would be to hold that the crucifixion actually occurred on Thursday.
Would that be your position?"

Yes, I think that the 5th day of the week is the more likely day, although I also think that the 4th day cannot absolutely be ruled out.




re: "1. IF that is correct, what would be its significance vs. the historic view?"

Other than negating the 6th day crucifixion view, it would mean that the Messiah was correct when He said that 3 nights would be involved.



re: "2. IF that is correct, who else besides yourself holds to this position?"

Below is a list of some Sabbath observing organizations of which most disagree with a 6th day of the week crucifixion.


1.1st Chronicles of the Living God Ministries Inc
2.11th Hour Apostolic Sabbatarian Church
3.7th Day Bible Church
4.7th Day Church of God
5.A Church of God Ministry
6.A Congregation in St. Louis
7.Aaronic Order (House of Aharon)
8.Abiding Faith In Truth Church Inc.
9.Abunda Life Church
10.Active Bible Church of God
11.Advent Fellowship of All Nations
12.Adventist Church of Promise
13.Ahtanum Community Church
14.Akron Fellowship
15.All Nations Assembly House of Prayer For All People
16.American Orthodox Catholic Church
17.American Society of Medical Missionary
18.Anointed Sabbath Ministries Inc
19.An Assembly of the Eternal's Called Out
20.Anointed Ministry Temple
21.Apostolic Assembly of Yahvah, inc
22.Apostolic Church of God, 7th Day
23.Apostolic Lighthouse Church
24.Apostolic Sacred Name Fellowship
25.Apostolic Truth Ministries Worldwide
26.Ark International
27.Assembled Believers Congregation
28.Assembles of the Called Out Ones of 'Yah,' Inc.
29.Assembles of Yahshua
30.Assembles of Yahweh
31.Assemblies of YaHVah
32.Assemblies of YaHVaHO SHA Worldwide Inc.
33.Assembly of Elohim
34.Assembly of God 7th Day
35.Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
36.Assembly of the Eternal, an independent Church of God
37.Assembly of the Firstborn
38.Assembly of Yah
39.Assembly of Yahowah, 7th Day
40.Assembly of Yahweh
41.Assembly of Yahweh Nigeria
42.Assembly with Elder Dale George
43.Assembled Believers Congregation
44.Association of 7th Day Pentecostal Assemblies
45.Atzzehret Yeshua Hakoom Messianic Congregation
46.Austin Fellowship
47.Austin Church of God
48.Australasian Conference of Seventh Day Baptists
49.Barnabas Ministries
50.Believer's Advocate
51.Believers in Christ Church of God
52.Berean Apostolic Faith Assembly
53.Berean Church of God
54.Bet Hashem Midrash
55.Bet Shavei-tzion International
56.Beth Ha Shofar (Messianic Congregation)
57.Beth Immanuel Sabbath Fellowship
58.Beth Israel Messianic Congregation
59.Beth Messiah Congregation
60.Beth Tikvah (House of Hope) - Newcastle, WA
61.Bible Sabbath Musicians' Association
62.Bibleway Church
63.Biblical Church of God Danville
64.Biblical Unitarian Churches of God
65.Blessed Hope Seventh Day Christian
66.Blessed Hope Mission Church
67.B'nai Yahshua Messianic Synagogue
68.Body of Christ Church of God
69.Branch of Jerusalem
70.Breath of Life
71.British Conference of Seventh Day Baptists
72.British Israel Church of God
73.Bro. Lester Anderson, Salem Acres
74.Brown, Frank and Connie
75.Building Bridges
76.C.A.L.
77.Canadian Church of God
78.Caribbean United Church
79.Celebration Church of God
80.Celina Independent Bible Study
81.Celtic Orthodox Church
82.Certain Place of the Seventh Day Chapel
83.Chapel-in-the-Ozarks
84.Charles Lindsey
85.Children of Promise
86.Children of Yah
87.Children of Yahvah
88.Children of Yahweh
89.Christ Fellowship Ministries (Church of God)
90.Christian Biblical Church of God
91.Christian Church of God, Inc.
92.Christian Churches of God
93.Christian Educational Ministries
94.Christian Family Church of God
95.Christian Fellowship Church
96.Christian Fellowship Church of God
97.Christian Fellowship Ministries of the Church of God
98.Christian Leadership Academy
99.Christian Renewal Ministries
100.Christian Sabbath Assembly
101.Christian Sabbath Keepers
102.Christians in Crisis
103.Christ Lion Ministries
104.Church of Biblical Truth
105.Church of Christ of Seventh Day
106.Church of God
107.Church of God, a Worldwide Association, Inc.
108.Church of God (Abrahamic Faith-Sabbath Keepers)
109.Church of God (Christianos)
110.Church of God (Iglesia de Dios)
111.Church of God 7th Day
112.Church of God 7th/Sabbath Day
113.Church of God a Christian Fellowship
114.Church of God an International Community
115.Church of God and Saints of Christ
116.Church of God Christ the Head
117.Church of God in the Netherlands (New Moon Seventh Day)
118.Church of God in the Wilderness
119.Church of God Independent
120.Church of God Messengers
121.Church of God Ministries, International
122.Church of God of the Eternal God
123.Church of God of the Seventh Day
124.Church of God Philadelphia Era
125.Church of God Proclaimed
126.Church of God Proclaiming the Kingdom
127.Church of God Providence
128.Church of God Restored
129.Church of God Sabbatarian
130.Church of God Sabbath Day
131.Church of God Seventh Day
132.Church of God Talent Ministries
133.Church of God the Ozarks
134.Church of God United
135.Church of God, an International Community
136.Church of God, In Truth, Inc. (Formerly Church of God's Truth)
137.Church of God, International
138.Church of God's Truth
139.Church of Israel
140.Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (STRANGITE)
141.Church of Jesus Christ, Sabbath Day
142.Church of The Adventist Fellowship
143.Church of the Great God
144.Church of the Living God
145.Church of the Living Yahweh
146.Church of the Lord Jesus Christ
147.Church of the Remnant Hope
148.Church of the Savior at Cincinnati
149.Church of the Sovereign God
150.Church State Council
151.Churches of God a Cooperative Fellowship
152.Churches of God Cyber Auxiliary
153.Community Church of God, Seventh Day
154.Congregacion De Yahweh
155.Congregation Beth Shalom
156.Congregation Beth Simcha
157.Congregation Beth Yeshua
158.Congregation Birth Hadoshah
159.Congregation B'nal Maccabim
160.Congregation of God Seventh Day
161.Congregation of Yahweh
162.Congregation of YHWH
163.Congregation Ohr Chadash
164.Cornerstone House of Prayer
165.Covenant Apostolic Churches, International
166.Covenant Mission in Canada
167.Dallas Congregation of the Almighty
168.David Alvin Gregg
169.Davis, Richard and Imogene
170.Deaf Assembly of YHWH
171.Disciples Church of God
172.Dove Christian Fellowship
173.East Texas Fellowship
174.Ecclesia Theos At Morristown TN
175.El Shaddai Ministries - Tacoma, WA
176.Elder Andrae Anthony
177.Elect Ministries of God
178.Eliyah Message
179.Elmer "Lee" Grose
180.Embassy of God
181.Embassy of Heaven Church
182.End Time Assembly of God
183.Eternal Church of God
184.Evangelical Christian Fellowships - Belgium
185.Evangelical Seventh Day Baptist Church
186.Evangelical Seventh Day Baptist Mission Service
187.Evangelistic Centre, Inc.
188.Evangelistic Church of Jesus Christ
189.Everlasting Church of God
190.Faith Bible and Tract Society
191.Faith, Hope and Charity; House of God, Inc.
192.Family Church of God
193.Faith of a Child Ministry
194.Family of God
195.Family of Yahweh
196.Family Sabbath Keepers
197.Father's House Sabbath Congregation
198.Fellowship Church of God
199.Fellowship of Missions
200.Fighters For Truth
201.Final Hours Ministry
202.Finding Truth Ministeries
203.First Assembly of Yahvah
204.First Century Church of God
205.First Deliverance Holiness Church
206.First Fruits of Zion
207.Foundation For Life Fellowship
208.Freedom Biblical Information
209.Freedom Church Of God
210.Freedom Road Ministries
211.Friends of the Sabbath
212.Friendship 7th Day Sabbath Church of God
213.General Association of Davidians SDA
214.German Seventh Day Baptists
215.Gig Harbor Sabbath Fellowship
216.Giving & Sharing
217.Global Church of God
218.God Cares We Care House of Prayer
219.God's Church in the Appleton- Green Bay area
220.God's Church Worldwide
221.God's Community
222.God's Family Fellowship
223.God's Last Call
224.God's Sabbath Rest
225.God's Storehouse
226.God's Work NOW! (Hold Fast To All Things)
227.Good News Unlimited
228.Gospel Celebration Fellowship
229.Gospel Fellowship
230.Grace Cowboy Church.
231.Green Pasture Gazette
232.Guard the Truth
233.Guardian Ministries
234.Hallelujah Fellowship
235.HalleluYah Assembly
236.Halleluyah Mission
237.Hartland Institute
238.Hatikure Ministries
239.Heartland Fellowship
240.Hebrew Israelites
241.Hebrew Roots
242.Hebrew to Christian Contact
243.Historic Adventists; 7th Day
244.Hold Fast to All Things
245.Holy Church of Christ Commandments of God
246.Holy Church of the Living God, Commandment Keepers
247.Holy Sabbath of Christ the King Mission International
248.Home Fellowship Assistance
249.Hope of Israel Ministries
250.House Church of Jesus Christ
251.Household of Israel Temple of Jesus Christ
252.House of God
253.House of God Hebrew Pentecostal Church
254.House of Prayer
255.House of the Eternal Church of the Living God
256.House of Yahshua Ministries, Inc
257.House of Yahvah
258.House of Yahweh
259.If You Love Me 7th Day Fellowship
260.Independent Church of God Sabbath Fellowship Group
261.Independent Church of God
262.Independent Church of God (Yahweh)
263.Independent Sabbath Church of God
264.India Assemblies of Messiah
265.Interactive Sabbath Fellowship
266.Intercontinental Church of God
267.Interdependent - Interactive Church Of God
268.Interdependent Church of God Sabbath Day
269.International Congregation of Yahweh
270.International Sanctuary Research Center
271.IMS Seventh Day Adventist Church Reform Movement
272.Internet Church of God
273.Israel Assemblies of Yahweh, Inc
274.Israel's Messiah Has Come!
275.Jackson Gap Assembly of Yahweh
276.Jubilee Cycle Research
277.Kansas City Church of God - Kansas City, MO
278.Katahdin Christian Community Church
279.Kehilat Ariel
280.Keith Siddens
281.Kingdom Missionaries
282.Kingdom on Earth of Y_H_W_H, the Sovereign
283.KYMAK
284.Last Age Church of God
285.Law and Grace Ministries
286.Lehigh Valley Sabbath Fellowship
287.Liberty Foundation (20th Century Church of God)
288.Lifeline Ministries
289.LifePointe Church of God
290.LifePointe Seventh-Day Remnant Church
291.Lifestyle in Faith Ministries
292.Lifetime Ministry Church
293.Links of Truth
294.Lion and Lamb Ministries
295.Lion of Judah Ministries
296.The Olive Branch
297.Little Children of Jesus Christ
298.Little Flock Fellowship
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533.Yahweh's Assembly in Messiah
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537.Yahweh's New Life Assembly
538.Yehowshu'wa Intl. Assemblies Ministry
539.Yeshua Chai Messianic Synagogue
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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50291
Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:07 PM
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Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50300
Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: rstrats
You say you're not familiar with the idea of a 6th day of the week crucifixion. But then you go on to indicate that you are. What am I missing?

Fingers? shrug

Originally Posted By: rstrats
Historic in the sense that that has been the majority opinion. But there are also historic opinions that the 6th day was not the day of the crucifixion.

Majority does not automatically equate with right. That's an indisuputable fact. Nor does longevity of a view held automatically make it correct. However, when the overwhelming majority of 'professing' Christian churches which differ on other matters all agree on a particular issue, then this carries much weight. Add to that the antiquity of the view, going all the way back to the Church Fathers, iterated by the Protestant Reformers, echoed by the Puritans and even by the Evanjellycal Fundementalists, you have a formidable task to show that this view is incorrect.

Originally Posted By: rstrats
Other than negating the 6th day crucifixion view, it would mean that the Messiah was correct when He said that 3 nights would be involved.

rofl I learned something new about you; you have a bit of a sense of humor. NO ONE is disputing the "words" recorded that Jesus spoke. What is not agreed upon is the "meaning" of those words. It's a hermeneutical issue which affects its application as well. When Jesus said, "I am the door..." (Jh 10:7,9), do you actually believe that He was describing his physical makeup and appearance, i.e., a "door"? scratchchin Or, perhaps Jesus traveled around with tendrils since He said, "I am the vine..." (Jh 15:5), and His believers belong to His agrarian society since they are "branches"? scratchchin

Obviously, the point attempting to be made is that language is not a simple, static thing but rather it is complex and one has to study it to come to understand it and how to use it. The "plain meaning" idea simply doesn't work. That is why the confessional churches all adhere to the "Grammatico-Historico" hermeneutic. The grammar must be understood and respected before one can 'rightly divide the Word of truth' (2Tim 2:15).

Originally Posted By: rstrats
Below is a list of some Sabbath observing organizations of which most disagree with a 6th day of the week crucifixion.

That's quite the list, which I am sure you didn't spend hours researching but contrariwise, you had at hand for occasions like this which I am fully convinced is what you do; travel from forum to forum pushing your unique doctrines... true? evilgrin

I guess what I should have done was to have been more specific in asking my question, e.g., "Who else among confessional, conservative Christian churches holds to this view?" I think there would be no list of groups in that case.


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: chestnutmare] #50301
Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:37 AM
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chestnutmare,

re: " I guess we need more information to go on."

I don't understand. Why is additional information required in order to provide the writing requested in the OP?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50626
Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:43 AM
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Since it has been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language so that 3 nights actually means 2 nights, will know of some writing.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50893
Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:34 PM
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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50964
Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:44 AM
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chestnutmare,

You have a question directed to you in post #50301.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #50965
Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:54 AM
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Pilgrim,

re: " "Who else among confessional, conservative Christian churches holds to this view? I think there would be no list of groups in that case."

Not knowing your definition of "confessional, conservative Christian churches" makes it impossible for me to say. Are they those who say that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50966
Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: rstrats
Pilgrim,

re: " "Who else among confessional, conservative Christian churches holds to this view? I think there would be no list of groups in that case."

Not knowing your definition of "confessional, conservative Christian churches" makes it impossible for me to say. Are they those who say that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

"confessional, conservatiave Christian churches" = All the historic Reformed confessions and catechisms which have been written, e.g., Helvetic Confessions, Thirty-Nine Articles, Belgic Confession, Westminster Confession, Westminster larger and Shorter Catechisms, London Baptist Confession, Savoy Declaration, Heidelberg Catechism, etc., all of which have been recognized in the true historic Protestant churches across denominational lines as being faithful summary statements of biblical teaching.


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #50968
Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:24 AM
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Pilgrim,

In answer to your question I have to say that I don't know. Are you saying that all those organizations believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?



Last edited by rstrats; Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:24 AM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50969
Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: rstrats
Pilgrim,

In answer to your question I have to say that I don't know. Are you saying that all those organizations believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying... i.e., what Dr. William Hendriksen wrote and which I quoted for you HERE and explained further in my subsequent replies is representative of historic Protestantism and held by all the framers of all the confessions and catechisms of the various denominations and churches which are part of the true Church. Jesus was buried on Friday and rose on Sunday. If that is what you are referring to as the "6th Day" view, then that is what is held to be true by them.

The disciples certainly held that view and that's one of the major reasons why they began meeting on Sunday, the first day of the week vs. Saturday which was the Jewish sabbath. THIS is what I believe is where you want to go with this, correct? You are trying to lay a foundation to justify Saturday as the 'true' Sabbath rather than Sunday, correct?


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50970
Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:04 AM
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Let me add a little more of Hendriksen's exegesis of Matthew 12:40 and specifically on this matter of when was Jesus buried and how long he was in the tomb before His resurrection:

Quote:
Nevertheless, again and again-sometimes in small pamphlets-the opinion will be advocated that according to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have died and been buried on Thursday. This, however, is definitely wrong, for the inspired records tell us that these events took place on Friday, that is, on Paraskeue, this very word being used even in modern Greek to indicate Friday (Mark 15:42, 43; Luke 23:46, 54; John 19:14, 30, 42). Also, if the proponents of this "Jesus was buried on Thursday afternoon" theory demand that "three days" means three entire days, their theory will still fall short; and, on the other hand, if, as they see it, a part of a day must be figured as a day, the result is: too many days!

Neither is it entirely satisfactory to say that, while Jesus died indeed on Friday and rose again on Sunday morning, the solution is to be found in the fact that, as already proved, the Jews counted a part of the day as equal to a day, and a part of the night as amounting to a night. As far as the "days" are concerned, this would be a satisfactory explanation, but it would still leave us with only two nights, not three.

What then? Some, despairing of a solution, declare that the saying, though having been a part of the Gospel from the beginning, is spurious, never having been uttered by Jesus himself. There is, however, no good reason thus to cut the Gordian knot. The true solution probably lies in a different direction. When we say "the universe," the ancients would say "heaven and earth." So also, should not their expression "one day and one night" be taken to mean one time unit, one diurnal period, a part of one such period being taken as a whole? He was indeed in the heart of the earth three "days-and-three-nights," that is during three of these time units.


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #50974
Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:09 AM
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Pilgrim,

re: "The disciples certainly held that view and that's one of the major reasons why they began meeting on Sunday, the first day of the week vs. Saturday which was the Jewish sabbath."

I'm not aware of any scripture that says that the disciples began meeting on the first day of the week in recognition of the resurrection. What do you have in mind?


re: "THIS is what I believe is where you want to go with this, correct? You are trying to lay a foundation to justify Saturday as the 'true' Sabbath rather than Sunday, correct?"

Not for the purpose of this topic. I simply am interested in what is requested in the OP.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #51062
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Since it's been awhile, someone new looking in may know of some writing.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52827
Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:01 AM
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A further rewording of the OP may make it a bit more clear. The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language. I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52830
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Hi rstrats,

I see that you have had suitable responses and it appears that you simply are rejecting them for some reason. Why is that? Is there something that you wish to put forward? Something that the church has throughout history not discovered before you? Why are you rejecting Hendricksen's explanation?


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All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: chestnutmare] #52831
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chestnutmare,
re: "Why are you rejecting Hendricksen's explanation?

I'm afraid I still don't see where Hendricksen - or anyone else for that matter - has provided examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Last edited by rstrats; Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:32 PM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52837
Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:22 AM
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Read the quotes Pilgrim posted on Hendricksen again, I believe I read what you are looking for there.
Unfortunately, I am heading to bed right now or I would quote where.

Tom

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Tom] #52838
Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:53 AM
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Tom,
re: "Read the quotes Pilgrim posted on Hendricksen again,"


I still don't find where he has provided examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52839
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Sorry I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say? scratch1

Tom

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Tom] #52840
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Tom,
re: "Sorry I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say?"

The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

There are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved between the time of His death and the time of His resurrection.

To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language.

I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

Last edited by rstrats; Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:24 AM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52842
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: rstrats

I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

I provided them and several others have confirmed that they have been provided... The problem is that you either don't like them or reject them without cause. shrug


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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #52844
Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:59 PM
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Pilgrim,
re: " I provided them..."


I haven't seen where you have done that. And it appears that you don't want to point out where you think that you have.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52845
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Originally Posted By: rstrats
Pilgrim,
re: " I provided them..."


I haven't seen where you have done that. And it appears that you don't want to point out where you think that you have.

Here are the places I provided solid evidence that both supports the historic Christian view and refutes several erroneous views:

- Dec 7, 2013 02:32 PM

- Dec 8, 2013 05:25 PM

- Sept 17, 2014 10:04 AM


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Pilgrim] #52846
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Pilgrim,

re: "Dec 7, 2013 02:32 PM"
re: "Dec 8, 2013 05:25 PM"
re: "Sept 17, 2014 10:04 AM"

I still don't see where any examples are provided in those posts to show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #52850
Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:40 PM
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I just went through this whole thread again and have concluded that Pilgrim's answers do indeed provide a logical answer to your query. The problem seems to be you just don't understand; or you reject what was said.

Tom

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Tom] #52851
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Tom,

Exactly what is it that you think I am asking?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #53659
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Since it's that time of year, perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #53661
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Isn't the all important question here whether jesus actually rose from the grave, not on what day that he died on?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: JesusFan] #53670
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JesusFan,
re: "Isn't the all important question here whether jesus actually rose from the grave, not on what day that he died on?"


That would be a question for a different topic since that is not what I'm asking.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #53684
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I mustbe misunderstanding you here, what was the gist of your question then?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: JesusFan] #53688
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JesusFan,
re: "I mustbe misunderstanding you here, what was the gist of your question then?"


OK, let my repeat:
The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

There are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved between the time of His death and the time of His resurrection.

To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish figure of speech/colloquial language.

I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #54935
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Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #54943
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Originally Posted by rstrats
Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

Are you a 7-day Adventist?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Anthony C.] #54944
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Anthony C.
re: "Are you a 7-day Adventist?"

No. Any particular reason for asking?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #54945
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Anthony,

I ask because I'm wondering why you might need to know if I'm a 7th day Adventist in order for you to be responsive to the OP request?

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55312
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Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Anthony C.] #55343
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Anthony C.,

You have a question directed to you in post #54945.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55363
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1 day and night refers to one calendar day, a part of which is often counted as the whole. Christ would have been dead on Friday, Saturday, and early morning on the 1st day of the week (the Christian Sabbath), per Matthew 28, etc.

Now, an example of this there is in the book of Esther which has been given to you and to which you haven't responded:


Esther 4:16
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

There is made mention of fasting 3 days, night and day. And yet verse 5 on the third day she has a banquet,

Esther 5:1
Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

The expression three days and three nights therefore allows for partial days in the reckoning expressed by the whole. So John Gill also gives other examples from Jewish writing,

"So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth", in distinction from the surface of it; but some difficulty arises about the time of his continuing there, and the prediction here made agreeable to the type: for it was on the sixth day of the week, we commonly call "Friday", towards the close, on the day of the preparation for the sabbath, and when the sabbath drew on, that the body of Christ was laid in the sepulchre; where it lay all the next day, which was the sabbath of the Jews, and what we commonly call "Saturday"; and early on the first of the week, usually called "Sunday", or the Lord's day, he rose from the dead; so that he was but one whole day, and part of two, in the grave. To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night, or twenty four hours, and are what the Greeks call νυχθημερα, "night days"; but the Jews have no other way of expressing them, but as here; and with them it is a well known rule, and used on all occasions, as in the computation of their feasts and times of mourning, in the observance of the passover, circumcision, and divers purifications, that מקצת היום ככולו, "a part of a day is as the whole"F14T. Hieros. Pesach. fol. 31. 2. T. Bab. Moed. Katon, fol. 16. 2. 17. 2. 19. 2. & 20. 2. Bechorot, fol. 20. 2. & 21. 1, Nidda, fol. 33. 1. Maimon. Hilch. Ebel, c. 7. sect. 1, 2, 3. Aben Ezra in Lev. xii. 3. : and so, whatever was done before sun setting, or after, if but an hour, or ever so small a time, before or after it, it was reckoned as the whole preceding, or following day; and whether this was in the night part, or day part of the night day, or natural day, it mattered not, it was accounted as the whole night day: by this rule, the case here is easily adjusted; Christ was laid in the grave towards the close of the sixth day, a little before sun setting, and this being a part of the night day preceding, is reckoned as the whole; he continued there the whole night day following, being the seventh day; and rose again early on the first day, which being after sun setting, though it might be even before sun rising, yet being a part of the night day following, is to be esteemed as the whole; and thus the son of man was to be, and was three days and three nights in the grave; and which was very easy to be understood by the Jews;"

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55364
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More similar comments from sound commentators, not hard to look up,

Matthew Poole:

Answer: What we call day and night made up the Jewish nychtemerai;. It appears by Gen 1:5, that the evening and the morning made up a day. Three days and three nights is with us but the same thing with three natural days, and so it must be understood here. Christ was in the grave three natural days, that is, part of three natural days; every one of which days contained a day and a night, viz. twenty-four hours.

Matthew Henry:

He (Christ) continued in the grave just as long as Jonah continued in the fish's belly, three days and three nights; not three whole days and nights: it is probable, Jonah did not lie so long in the whale's belly, but part of three natural days (nychthemerai, the Greeks called them); he was buried in the afternoon of the sixth day of the week, and rose again in the morning of the first day; it is a manner of speech very usual;

see 1Ki 20:29
And they pitched one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined: and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day.

Est 4:16; Est 5:1; Luk 2:21 So long Jonah was a prisoner for his own sins, so long Christ was a Prisoner for ours.

Albert Barnes

Three days and three nights - It will be seen in the account of the resurrection of Christ that he was in the grave but two nights and a part of three days. This computation is, however, strictly in accordance with the Jewish mode of reckoning. If it had “not” been, the Jews would have understood it, and would have charged our Saviour as being a false prophet, for it was well known to them that he had spoken this prophecy,

 Mat 27:63
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Such a charge, however, was never made; and it is plain, therefore, that what was “meant” by the prediction was accomplished. It was a maxim, also, among the Jews, in computing time, that a part of a day was to be received as the whole. Many instances of this kind occur in both sacred and profane history.

See 2Ch 10:5
And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed

 2Ch 10:12
So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day. 

 Gen 42:17-18
17 And he put them all together into ward three days. 18 And Joseph said unto them the third day, This do, and live; for I fear God

Compare Est 4:16 with Est 5:1.

Last edited by AlexM; Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:39 PM.
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John Trapp commentary

So shall the Son of man be three days, etc.

Taking a part for the whole. So Esther fasted three days and three nights, Esther 4:16, and yet on the third day she went to the king, Esther 5:1. So, then, the fast lasted not three whole days and nights, but two nights, one full day, and two pieces of days.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55366
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Jesus says (Matthew 16:21) that he will "be raised again the third day." Hence, in Jewish usage {the third day} must mean the same as {three days and three nights}. It was and is customary with the Orientals to make any part of the day stand for the whole twenty-four hours. Compare 

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Matthew 27:63-64
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: AlexM] #55367
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AlexM,

re: "1 day and night refers to one calendar day, a part of which is often counted as the whole. Christ would have been dead on Friday, Saturday, and early morning on the 1st day of the week (the Christian Sabbath), per Matthew 28, etc. Now, an example of this there is in the book of Esther which has been given to you and to which you haven't responded:"

I responded to the Esther account in post #50254.




re: "There is made mention of fasting 3 days, night and day. And yet verse 5 on the third day she has a banquet,"

3 days, night and day is not necessarily the same thing as 3 days and 3 nights; but even it is, nothing in the Esther account precludes at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion on 3 night times. Thus the account is not an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have been involved. Likewise, none of your commentators' quotes provide any such examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55368
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Sure they do! All the examples show part of a day being counted for the whole. She didnt fast on the night time of the third day, her fast, as Trapp delineates, lasted 2 nights, one full day, and two peices of days.

Also, Gill provides literature from Jews speaking of reckoning part of a day as a whole, and how day and night refers to a calendar day.

There is also the matter of Christ himself saying he would rise on the third day, not after the third night, which further supports this understanding of the idiom.

I'm not sure if you're being selective or skimming, or what.

Last edited by AlexM; Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 PM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: AlexM] #55369
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AlexM,
re: "Sure they do! She didnt fast on the night time of the third day..."

Where does the account show that she couldn't have fasted during any portion of the night time of the third calendar day?



re: "Also, Gill provides literature from Jews speaking of reckoning part of a day as a whole, and how day and night refers to a calendar day."

That's an issue for a different topic.




re: "There is also the matter of Christ himself saying he would rise on the third day, not after the third night, which further supports this understanding of the idiom."

That's an issue for a different topic.



re: "I'm not sure if you're being selective or skimming, or what."

I don't understand what that means. I wonder if you might elaborate.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55371
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Turns out you are being selective because you're dismissing relevant points as issues "for another topic".

They are very relevant for this topic.

As for Esther, my point is about the use of idiom. She says she will fast three days night and day and "then" go to see the king, but then she goes to see him on the third day, which obviously could not have been after having fasted on the third night as well, becuause she didnt wait until after the third night to go see him.

Last edited by AlexM; Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:11 PM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: AlexM] #55373
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AlexM,
re: "Turns out you are being selective because you're dismissing relevant points as issues 'for another topic'."

I have not dismissed any relevant points with regard to the issue of this topic because there haven't been any. What I'm dismissing are comments that have been made for a different topic. This one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., the issue with regard to the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.



re: "As for Esther, my point is about the use of idiom. She says she will fast three days night and day and THEN go to see the king, but then she goes to see him on the third day, which could have been after having fasted on the third night as well.

And that is what I am saying - that at least a part of a third night could have been involved, therefore the Esther account is not an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55374
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How can you demonstrate part of the night time was involed when Esther went to see him on the third day? Which means, before night time.

And yes you have dismissed them because those examples all speak of something happening *after* a calendar day, and then the thing is said to take place on the day, not after, which means the night was not included.

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I think I see the problem. You're using a sunrise to sunrise calendar day and I'm using a sundown to sundown calendar day. I will need to add that to my next clarification of the OP.

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I haven't studied the issue of the calendar too much in-depth, but I recently came across one reformed author who believes its biblically meant to be sunrise to sunrise.

https://reformedbooksonline.com/when-does-the-lords-day-begin/

"The most plausible passage for an evening-reckoning of the Sabbath in the New
Testament, concerning the events of Jesus’ burial and the buying of spices on Friday
evening (Lk. 23:50-56), is found to be incompatible with an evening-reckoning and
consistent with the morning-view. "


I'm not sure it materially affects the sign of Jonah the Saviour was intending.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55413
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Further clarification of the OP:

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who believe that a calendar day begins and ends at sunset.

3. Of those there are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

4. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

5. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

6. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

7. I wonder if anyone who falls in that above group of believers might provide examples to support that belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.





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Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55414
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Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Meta4] #55415
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Meta4,
re: "Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?"

That's an issue for a different topic.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55416
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Originally Posted by rstrats
Meta4,
re: "Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?"

That's an issue for a different topic.

Hmm... that seems to be your stock reply to any answer which you do not like, or to any question which you wish to avoid.

People may be more willing to engage in conversation with you, if you were more forthcoming about your own position.


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
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Meta4,
re: "Hmm... that seems to be your stock reply to any answer which you do not like..."

Why should I like non-applicable replies?



re: "... or to any question which you wish to avoid."

I have unfortunately let myself get drawn off topic and have answered a number of questions. As for your question "Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?" please explain why you need an answer in order to provide examples.



re: "People may be more willing to engage in conversation with you, if you were more forthcoming about your own position."

First off I'm not looking for conversation - only examples. And secondly, while I have given a number of positions, none of them, or for that matter any other ones, are nesessary for being able to provide examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55418
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:32 PM
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rstrats
First off I'm not looking for conversation

That much, at least, is true. You have repeatedly demonstrated in this thread, and in others, that you have no interest at all in what anyone else has to say, unless it lines up entirely with your own opinion.

By being secretive, you lead others to believe that you have something to hide. By refusing to answer certain questions, or to make your own position known, you arouse suspicions and simply alienate others.

For five years you have continued to hammer away at this same point, all the while rejecting the answers you have received and repeating your mantra of "That's an issue for a different topic." Honestly, I don't know what you think you will achieve by doing so.

Why don't you open up, and tell us where you stand, and exactly what your purpose and reasoning is in asking this question? Who knows, perhaps you will find that there are others on this forum who agree with your position.


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Meta4] #55419
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:21 AM
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:21 AM
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Meta4,
re: "Why don't you open up, and tell us where you stand, and exactly what your purpose and reasoning is in asking this question? "

My stance/position is that if someone asserts that it was common in the 1st century or before to forecast or say that a daytime or a night would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur, then that person would have to know of examples in order to legitimately make the assertion of commonality. That is this topic's only issue. And I'm simply curious if it was indeed common usage of the time.


BTW, you have a couple of questions directed to you in post #55417.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55496
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:08 AM
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Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55503
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:16 AM
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:16 AM
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What makes you think anyone can improve on what has already been said?
I think the answers that have been given by Pilgrim and others are excellent.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: Tom] #55504
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:37 AM
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:37 AM
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Tom,
re: "What makes you think anyone can improve on what has already been said?"

Optimism.



re: "I think the answers that have been given by Pilgrim and others are excellent."

Maybe for a different topic. But for this particular one I still don't see where they have provided examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Last edited by rstrats; Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:42 AM.
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55505
Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:26 PM
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I think that has been answered sufficiently; I can't add to it.

Tom

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55507
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:22 AM
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Tom,
re: "I think that has been answered sufficiently..."

I wonder if you might point out the post which provides examples? I haven't seen any.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55520
Sun May 12, 2019 1:35 PM
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Someone new looking in may know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55521
Sun May 12, 2019 1:39 PM
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Meta4,

You have a couple of questions directed to you in post #55417.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55522
Sun May 12, 2019 2:56 PM
Sun May 12, 2019 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rstrats
Meta4,

You have a couple of questions directed to you in post #55417.

After more than five years, across four pages, you have consistently refused to answer questions put to you by others. Why would you feel you have the right to demand answers from others?


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55528
Sat May 18, 2019 11:34 AM
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Meta4,
re: "After more than five years, across four pages, you have consistently refused to answer questions put to you by others. Why would you feel you have the right to demand answers from others?

On page one I was asked 11 questions. I responded to each one.

On page two I was asked 5 questions. I responded to 2 on page two. The other 3 were touched on in replies on page one.

One page 3 I was asked 4 questions. I responded to each one.

One page 4 I was asked 1 question. I responded to it.

One page 5 I was asked 3 questions. I responded to each one.

One page 6 I was asked 1 question, i.e., "Why would you feel you have the right to demand answers from others?" I never demanded answers from anyone. I've asked them questions about their comments and have merely pointed out to those who haven't replied that they have questions directed to them.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55979
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:48 AM
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Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #55980
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:55 AM
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Tom,

You have a question directed to you in post #55507 on page 5.

Re: Matthew 12:40 [Re: rstrats] #56257
Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:44 PM
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Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples. And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

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