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Teaching on the gift (or office) of evangelists in Ephesians 4 #50493
Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:54 AM
Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:54 AM
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John_C Offline OP

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Sunday night I attended an installation of an assistant pastor in a nearby city. The pastor who gave the charge to the Session, based his charge on Ephesians 4:1-16. In it he mentioned in verse 11 about the gifts of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Of course, apostles and prophets are no longer practiced gifts (or office). He also said he is persuaded that the gift (or office) of evangelists as presented in Ephesians 4 as not being practice today as well. He said he didn't have time to delve into that, nor was it the place as he wanted to spend his time on pastors (shepherds) and teachers in making the charge.

Although I probably would have sympathy with him, I have not heard of that particular gift (or office in Eph 4:11) as no longer being practiced as presented in Ephesians 4. Has anyone of you heard a deeper understanding of that?


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Teaching on the gift (or office) of evangelists in Ephesians 4 [Re: John_C] #50494
Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:29 AM
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John,

1. There is no warrant to designate "evangelist" as an office. The NT is clear that there are but two offices; Elder and Deacon. Phillip, for example, was ordained as a deacon and in that capacity he also was an itinerant evangelist. Likewise, Timothy was an aid to the apostle Paul and later was ordained as an Elder.

2. The gift of "evangelist" I equate with what we today commonly call "missionary". But again, the Bible nowhere establishes those who are so gifted as holding an office within the Church.


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Re: Teaching on the gift (or office) of evangelists in Ephesians 4 [Re: Pilgrim] #50495
Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:01 PM
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Thanks.

In Ephesians 4:11 was Paul talking about the gift or the office in naming the 4? OTOH, maybe Ephesians 4 is not about spiritual gifts as we see in 1 Corinthians 12. Maybe I need a good definition of distinguishing between a gift and an office?


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Teaching on the gift (or office) of evangelists in Ephesians 4 [Re: John_C] #50496
Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:44 PM
Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: John_C
Thanks.

In Ephesians 4:11 was Paul talking about the gift or the office in naming the 4? OTOH, maybe Ephesians 4 is not about spiritual gifts as we see in 1 Corinthians 12. Maybe I need a good definition of distinguishing between a gift and an office?

Let's look at the CONTEXT of that verse:

Quote:
Ephesians 4:8-12 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

We see that Paul is speaking of "gifts" and not offices. Offices are designated elsewhere in Paul's epistles which have to do with the administration of the Church. Thus, the great majority of denominations have agreed that Elder and Deacon are the only two permanent offices established for the post-resurrection Church.


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Re: Teaching on the gift (or office) of evangelists in Ephesians 4 [Re: Pilgrim] #50502
Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:43 AM
Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:43 AM
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I equally agree that Eph.4:11 is not about offices but about gifts as is made clear from the words " he gave gifts to men." My own thinking (and I could be wrong) is that the first three gifts of apostle, prophet and evangelist were unique to the founding of the New Testament church.
It seems to me that these evangelists would have been part of the apostolic team or some kind of assistants to the apostles as is evident from the case of Philip and Steven who were ordained by the apostles in Acts 6 and could therefore also perform miracles just as the apostles did. We don't hear of elders (apart from the apostles themselves) performing miracles in the Scriptures and also in church history.
Therefore it would be safer to say that the gift of evangelist in Eph.4:11 has now ceased. The work of apostles, prophets and evangelists now falls on pastor-teachers. For example, pastors completely rely on the writings of the apostles to shepherd the church. Pastors are also "prophets" in a way because they bring the word of the Lord to the congregation but not as direct revelation as the prophets did. Pastors are also exhorted to do the work of an evangelist like Paul did instruct Timothy.
Just thinking loudly.


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Re: Teaching on the gift (or office) of evangelists in Ephesians 4 [Re: Lichawa Thole] #50503
Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:05 AM
Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:05 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted By: Lichawa Thole
Therefore it would be safer to say that the gift of evangelist in Eph.4:11 has now ceased. The work of apostles, prophets and evangelists now falls on pastor-teachers. For example, pastors completely rely on the writings of the apostles to shepherd the church. Pastors are also "prophets" in a way because they bring the word of the Lord to the congregation but not as direct revelation as the prophets did. Pastors are also exhorted to do the work of an evangelist like Paul did instruct Timothy.
Just thinking loudly.

You may be correct, but I am going to have to take exception to the "pastor-teacher" designation - IF - by this you are implying that there are ordained elders who are not "pastor-teachers", aka: "Ruling Elders". As has been already discussed, I believe strongly that there is but ONE OFFICE of "Elder", the qualifications of which requires that a man be both "apt to teach" and "rule well". There is nothing in Scripture which deems one man a "pastor-teacher" who is above any other, nor even equal to others who are relegated either specifically or in practice and not deemed pastor-teacher. ALL elders are pastors, bishops, over-seers, under-shepherds, etc., for the qualifications for the office must be met by any man considered for the office. grin


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