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#51037 - Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:54 AM The Holy Spirit and His role in the interpretation of Scripture  
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I am having an interesting conversation with a fairly new Christian, talking to him about the role of the Holy Spirit’s role in the interpretation of Scripture.
I have asked him what he believes the role of the Holy Spirit is in the interpretation of Scripture in the believer’s life.
I have not as yet talked to him about hermeneutics and depending on his answer, I may.
I suspect that he might have had some influence from people in the Emergent Church.
He has given me quite a bit of information already concerning what he believes concerning the role of the Holy Spirit in the interpretation and basically without giving a lot of detail. He says when he hears something whether it is Scripture or something else like a testimony the Holy Spirit acting in him gives him an absolute confidence as though He was nodding in agreement showing him it is true.
I thought rather than answer him directly; I would ask him to flesh this out by saying the follow to him.
Quote:
Ok, let us flesh this out a little more for the sake of clarity.
If your pastor was preaching about the story of Peter walking on the water (Matthew 14:26-36) and he said the reason why Peter sank is not because he lost faith in Christ and looked at the conditions around him. It was because he didn’t have faith in himself. God has faith in you!
If you felt a peace about what your pastor said and you (to use your terminology) felt the Holy Spirit was nodding in agreement. Would you trust that interpretation of the passage?
Why or why not?

By the way this is what Rob Bells says in his NUMA videos, so hopefully his answer will show something.
What I am asking the board here is for prayer first and any information that I might find helpful in showing the truth.
I need to admit at this point, I have been told that I can at times makes it sound like I am trying to win an argument, rather than speak the truth in love and just proclaim truth and let the Holy Spirit do his bidding. I am trying to be conscious of this in this particular discussion.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:08 AM.
#51038 - Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:10 AM Re: The Holy Spirit and His role in the interpretation of Scripture [Re: Tom]  
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First of all Tom, you wrote that this person is a "fairly new Christian". What initially comes to my mind is have you made an effort to ascertain whether this person is actually a true believer; does he have a credible profession of faith? From what very little you have revealed about this person's view(s) concerning how the Spirit functions within a believer in regard to guiding him/her to comprehend, embrace and practice the inspired truth of God; the Bible, I must admit that I found myself skeptical immediately.

In short, although it would be interesting to know what this person's Pneumatology is, my main and deep concern is whether this person is actually regenerate. All else is secondary.

Secondly, I am a bit confused about this mention of Rob Bell, that popular heretic of Mars Hill Bible Church. Is the idea that Peter began to sink because he, Peter, didn't have enough faith in himself what Bell teaches? It would certainly fit. giggle


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#51043 - Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:10 PM Re: The Holy Spirit and His role in the interpretation of Scripture [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Actually, I probably should not call him a Christian, because I definitely have my doubts. You are definitely correct that a person’s Pneumatology is secondary to the whether or not the person is regenerate. He is able to articulate quite well how a person is saved. However, I suspect that is because of his exposure to the Gospel.

I have chosen this avenue because it is an area that I definitely see a huge problem with. His own friends have actually talked a fair amount with him on this. A while back, I thought it might be helpful to involve his pastor. So I went to him and I was quite disappointed in his reaction. He said that (name) is a sinner just like me. I got the feeling that he wasn’t going to talk to him.

The issue seems to revolve around this particular issue and he has brought up Hebrews 8, particularly verses 10-11, into the discussion, which leads to his understanding of Scripture. Though he is a little hard to understand, it sounds like he evaluates truth by a peace he feels that he believes the Holy Spirit gives him. (Sounds a little bit like Mormonism and what they call “burning in their bosom”)

Yes that is Rob Bells understanding of why Peter sank. Sorry I wasn’t clear on that.
I brought the issue of Rob Bell’s understanding (without naming Rob Bell) to him to mainly see what kind of answer he gives using his measure of evaluating truth. Not sure it is the best way to flesh the issue out, but that is what came to my mind when I saw what he said to me.

I have no illusions that I can convince him of anything, however seeing how he is remaining open and cordial; I am going to try to proclaim the truth to him. If I think it is a fruitless endeavor, I am going to drop the matter and just keep him in my prayers.

I am however aware of the fact that sometimes my words fail to be understood by others. This was made clear to me, on more than one occasion. An example of that happened a few years ago, when I was trying to give biblical advice to a friend on his marriage problems and trying to stick with Scripture. However, it became apparent, that it was fruitless, so I had to drop the matter. However, last year the Lord brought the person back in my life and now we are close friends. He told me that before he wasn’t ready to hear what I said and as a result he thought I was attacking him. He went on to say that now, God prepared him to receive what I had to say and he is hungry to hear more and grow.

That particular conversation taught me as much (or rather is teaching) me as much as what I was able to teach him.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:19 PM.
#51044 - Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:34 AM Something to add [Re: Tom]  
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I mentioned earlier that he talked about Hebrews 8 concerning being able to understand Scripture.
Something else just came to mind concerning another Scripture passage I mentioned to him in a past conversation. I mentioned to him 2 Tim.3:16-17 and told him the orthodox view of this passage. Although his answer was a little confusing to me, I got the distinct impression that he didn't agree with this view of 2 Tim. 3:16-17. This is when he mentioned Hebrews chapter 8.
I am not completely sure I understand why he believes this passage disproves the orthodox view of 2 Tim. 3:16-17, but that is his understanding. The only other thing he said concerning this is he really doesn't care what the traditional view is and he isn't trying to convince me of his view.

Tom

#51045 - Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:04 AM Re: Something to add [Re: Tom]  
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Hebrews 8:10-11 (ASV) “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.”
Here is a part of what Arthur Pink wrote on these two texts:

Quote:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest” (v. 11). These words point a contrast from the general spiritual ignorance which obtained among the Jews: cf. Isa. 1:3, etc. “The words in the 11th verse are not to be understood absolutely, but comparatively. They intimate, that under that covenant there shall be a striking contrast to the ignorance which characterized the great body of those who were under the Old Covenant; that the revelation of the Divine will shall be far more extensive and clear under the new than under the old economy; and that there shall be a correspondingly enlarged communication of the enlightened influences of the Holy Spirit. They probably also are intended to suggest the idea, that that kind of knowledge which is the peculiar glory of the New Covenant, is a kind of knowledge which cannot be communicated by brother teaching brother, but comes directly from Him – the great Teacher, whose grand characteristic is this, that whom He teaches, He makes apt to learn” (John Brown).

“And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying Know the Lord.” During the Mosaic economy, and particularly in the last century before Christ, there was an external teaching of the Law, which the people trusted and rested in without any regard for God’s teaching by the inward circumcision of the heart. Such teaching had degenerated into rival schools and sects, such as the Pharisees, Sadduccees, Herodians, Essenes, etc., and they made void the Word of God through their traditions (Mark 7:13). It was against such the last of Israel’s prophets had announced. “The Lord will cut off . . . the master and the scholar out of the tabernacles of David” (Mal 2:12). Or, our verse probably has more direct reference to the general knowledge God which obtained during the Mosaic economy, when He revealed Himself under types and shadows, and was known through “parables and dark sayings.” These were not supplanted by the full blaze of the Gospel’s light.

“For all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.” God is now known in the full revelation which He has made of Himself in the person of His incarnate Son: John 1:18. As we are told in 1 John 5:20, “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true”: “know Him” in the sense that we recognize, own, and practically obey Him as God. This spiritual, experimental, vital, saving knowledge of God is now communicated unto all of His elect. As the Saviour announced, “They shall be all taught of God” (John 5:45): taught His will and all the mysteries of godliness, which by the Word are revealed. This “Knowledge” of God cannot be imparted by any external teaching alone, but is the result of the Spirit’s operations, though He frequently, yea generally, uses the oral and written ministry of God’s servants as His instruments therein. (emphasis mine)

There are myriad passages in the NT that teach and affirm that it is through means that the revealed of God is communicated, i.e., its meaning and application; through the Church and its ordained elders, pastors, teachers. If that were not true, then there would be no need for preaching and teaching in the Church, which is totally contrary to what Paul wrote in Eph 4:8-16 for this is one of the benefits of Christ sending His Spirit.


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#51047 - Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:31 AM Re: Something to add [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim

Thank you for the work you did on this one.
I suspect, he thinks (although I don't know for sure) that Hebrews teaches a number of things such as not having to be taught Scripture because it is written on the Christian's heart (verse 10) and possibly universalism (verse 11).

As the commentary and your comments show, that could not possibly be the case. God works through means.

Tom

#51048 - Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:04 AM More [Re: Tom]  
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I had not intended to say anything else concerning this issue. However, I just received his reply and to be quite frank, I am not completely sure I understand what he is saying in order to respond to him properly.
I hope you don't mind if I post that response here.

Quote:
first of all... drop down to 8:13... where it here clearly states that the "new" covenant "obsoletes" the old... the old covenant which was thrown out... discarded... after Israel dishonoured the covenant with God... faithlessly ...

very important...
but then yes... 10-12 are important...

old covenant PROMISED a savior was coming... one who would fulfill the promises...and that on that day and after that day... the 'old ways' would be obsolete... having served the intended purpose... and the new version of the now fulfilled covenant would come into effect...thus the 'new covenant'...

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

so ... Jesus fulfills the covenant promises... even after Israel faithlessly betrays the terms of that covenant... betrayal of a covenant being punishable by death... literally... you have forfeited your life by betraying the covenant...

so for God to 'forgive their wickedness, and remember their sins no more..." and not just of 'chosen and fallen' Israel... but of all peoples... all God's children...

and Israel will no longer need to go and spread the message, the Gospel message, that God exists... that he is god... for He put His laws in our hearts and minds... all of us... each of us...

simple takeaway from this passage ...

God... has written the knowledge of his existence, and of his laws deeply within each of us... we each have the GOSPEL message.... the evangelistic mission... imprinted undeniably and irrevocably within our hearts and minds.... and noone ever again NEEDS to be told that God exists, not simply to 'learn that truth' for we ALREADY know....

evangelism then serves a purpose ... but is no longer commanded of us in order to teach THAT GOD EXISTS.... evangelism then must mean something else... at its core... and must serve some other purpose...

and ... again simple... if every man woman and child 'knows' deep within their core that God exists.... you definitely do not require a bible to learn that, or to choose to believe it....
choose to surrender' to that....

so Hebrews 8 is a good example of how I would describe my faith...

I believe absolutely... I am absolutely convicted, ... that God exists... and I believe Hebrews 8 :10-12... that God himself has authored a message written deep within my 'soul' knowledge of God, and of God's laws...

Anything I believe EVER in any scripture... I believe because of God, the Word of God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...

I never believe in God because of the bible... it is that if I believe in the bible, it is because of my faith in God . Every time. it all comes back to Faith Like Daniel


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