The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Belief a Choice?

How about this: The world was flat to me until I learned that it was round, so I changed my belief from flat-earth to a spherical globe. Consciously, as a matter of choice. This ain't complicated.

Easily answered by showing your premise is illogical and perhaps even irrational, for you originally wrote:

This would mean that everything you believe, i.e., everything you consider to exist or is true, you have absolutely no involvement in embracing those beliefs. So, anything you hold to exist or to be true is therefore innate and unalterable, because for a belief to change in your view, it cannot involve your conscience; intellect with the process of reason nor your affections, an affinity, desire, attraction for something. And if anything you believe exists or is true does change, it thus must be due to some invisible external or internal force which you are totally unaware of and thus you cannot even know your belief has changed or that it no longer exists.

Bottom line..... fatuousness.

Robin,

re: "How about this: The world was flat to me until I learned that it was round..."

What was the state of your mind with regard to the shape of the earth at the moment you realized that you had learned that the earth was round?

Perhaps attentive?

So what is your agenda. It is obvious that you have one and are choosing to play games here.

Ardent conviction based on observation that the earth was flat; followed by delight and ardent conviction that the world is a sphere based on observation, reason, and newly discovered facts.

Education forced the change. Rather than get all hurt and disappointed by the facts, I took delight in the truth and reveled in meaning of this newly-discovered truth:

That I won't ever fall off the edge into oblivion,
That there is more to know than merely what I see,
That the Creator is amazing, wise, powerful, and imaginative,
That someday I will see Him and learn even more!

Having showed the impossibility of "believing" something unconsciously, how about looking at the biblical teaching concerning "belief", particularly those things which belong to the non-corporeal such as a fiduciary faith/belief in God and Christ.

Here, God is appealing to reason with a proposition to consider having shown that He will not have anything to do with the people of Israel due to their myriad sins. The call is to repent and embrace (believe) in the mercy of God. Certainly this involves a conscious decision.

Another appeal to believe using reason; a direct use of the intellect and the emotions/affections. Again, a conscious act of believing is called for.

Belief comes through the consideration of facts made known, either through perception or communication of thought or that which is inherently known. In this case, the wrath of God is clearly understood and acknowledged due to the incontrovertible reality of the everlasting power and deity of God is perspicuously seen in both the things which are made; the creation, and from an internal witness of conscience, man being created in the image of God. However, despite the overwhelming and undeniable witness of the truth concerning God men choose to deny God and the evidence that reveals Him. This denial, aka: unbelief is blatant, for they don't simply ignore the evidence but the exchange the truth of it for a lie, i.e., something of their own making, as they preen themselves on being 'wise', despite the fact that their belief is illogical and irrational.

A marvelous and beautiful pericope that illustrates among many things that one can be plagued with disbelief but through knowledge of the truth one can truly abandon that disbelief and believe. In this case also, believing was conscious which resulted from a knowledge of truth and a desire to believe that which was hoped; a hope that was grounded in prophesy, a foretelling of the coming of the Messiah who would save His people from their sins.

Another instance of initial unbelief, which through the dissemination of the truth, many believed, i.e., they consciously considered (reasoned) what was said and deliberately embraced the truth of what was told them.

The call to repent, believe and follow Christ is always directed at one's intellect and often with an appeal to the emotive element of a person. The response, either to reject that call or to receive that call is always a conscious one. The ability to believe is another issue entirely not germane to this discussion. The reality is people believe or disbelieve something consciously.

Pilgrim,

re: "The reality is people believe or disbelieve something consciously."

Then I would ask you again to demonstrate such an ability to consciously engender a new belief by doing as requested in the OP.

And why should I "demonstrate" something which I have gone to great lengths to do just that by providing both myriad biblical passages and via logic. Others have likewise provided "demonstrations" of this incontrovertible truth. The alleged "help" you originally asked has been given but you obviously have no regard for any of it. This is what you originally wrote:

Restricting "belief" to just an individual's response to the Gospel, the commands and pleadings throughout both the OT and NT to repent and believe, which are addressed to one's conscious being, would be senseless. True saving faith (belief) is the fruit of regeneration and involves the mind (intellect), emotions (affections) and will, aka: fiducia. It is the same manifestation of loving God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength. If it were unconcious, then it would be impossible to detect and thus you would be forever seeking after that which already exists. Again..... pure nonsense.

Pilgrim,

re: " The alleged 'help' you originally asked has been given..."

The first part of the help - and it's not alleged, it's flat out stated - is for someone to demonstrate in realtime ( 'right now, while you are reading this') ones ability to consciously choose to believe things. So far no one has done that.

You asked for help in demonstrating "to consciously choose to believe things". What HAS been given, as stated several times via Scripture and logic, that all choices to believe something is, of necessity, a conscious decision. The contrary is illogical and makes no sense, aka: nonsense. Your personal perception of your alleged inability to do so is hardly a viable proof. We here hold that the Bible is the sole and final authority in all matters pertaining to faith and life. If you consciously choose to not believe what God has written, there isn't much I or anyone can do to help you further.

Pilgrim,

re: "You asked for help in demonstrating 'to consciously choose to believe things'. What HAS been given, as stated several times via Scripture and logic, that all choices to believe something is, of necessity, a conscious decision."

And yet no one so far has demonstrated such an ability.



re: "Your personal perception of your alleged inability to do so is hardly a viable proof."

It's proof that I have never been able to consciously choose to believe things. I haven't said that that means that no one else can.




re: ". We here hold that the Bible is the sole and final authority in all matters pertaining to faith and life."

I have no idea what that has to do with this OP.




re: "If you consciously choose to not believe what God has written, there isn't much I or anyone can do to help you further."

I see I need to repeat that I have never been able to consciously choose to believe or not believe things.

At any rate, it's apparent that all I'm going to get here is a bunch of grief so I shall be moving on and you can close this topic.

Huh? It has been demonstrated that all human beings consciously believe what they do from Scripture and logic.


Huh? Since Scripture speaks to the issue of "believing" and since the Scriptures are the final and sole authority on the subject of believing, it seems obvious that it has everything to do with the subject.


Did you consciously believe that all you are going to here here is a bunch of grief? Or, did that belief just create itself apart from your consciousness and you have no idea why you believe that and you have no ability to not believe that?