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#33177 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:35 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: Pilgrim]  
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None of that states that I said that one has to believe right doctrine in order to get saved !


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me葉he task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33178 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:18 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: beloved57]  
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beloved57 said:
None of that states that I said that one has to believe right doctrine in order to get saved !

I will simply repeat what Paul already pointed out.

Quote
B57,

call it what you will, when you gave me your testimony up there, you did not mention one verse, not one scripture, in fact you said you didn`t believe any of the five points of calvinism= the truth they represent, that is the Gospel of jesus christ, in that those truths set forth truthfully who he is and what he accomplished. If you did not believe those truths about christ, then you belived a false gospel, and you were decieved.

and then you opened your mouth once again and inserted your foot [Linked Image] saying,

Quote
B57,

men today don`t believe the true gospel because they probably have not heard it. You still have not convinced me that you heard it back then when you said you first believed. Believed what ? You did not believe christ died for his people like it was prohesied. You did not believe in your depravity and hopelessness , you did not believe in sovereign grace, you did not believe Jesus was God. You basically heard that christ died for sinners,aand you felt bad about your sins. I am not saying now you don`t believe the true gospel, I believe you do, but I believe, from what you have written, that you hold on to your rubbish. Instead of thanking God for revealing to you the real Christ of promise, you believe you went from point a to point b , when in fact, you had not even been regenerated and heard the truth about who christ is and what he accomplished, and for whom he accomplished it for, it is as simple as that

Thou art the man B57, though art the man! (2 Samuel 12:7-10).


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33179 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:24 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: J_Edwards]  
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again , you don`t get the point, believing a false gospel only proves at that time you are not yet in a converted state. You have still failed to prove that I said that you must believe the true in order to get saved... an muslim who is elected to salvation , God is pleased to keep him in darkness and believe a false doctrine until the year 2006, in 2006, He hears the truths about Jesus Christ as to who he is and what he has done for his people, the great Love that God has in christ, for his church , his sheep , those given in election, the israel of God. He at this time in 2006 , believes in christ as to what he has done for his people matt 1: 21 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins ! the true gospel when presented or proclaimed properly, declares Gods people saved already by the death of Christ <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> Its not an offer, it`s an declaration of an accomplished fact. The elect person believes the Good news as the Holy spirit applys their salvation to them with power and persuasion as in 1thess 1For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The Gospel is not an offer to do something to get saved, it`s a proclamation of an establihed fact, Gods people are saved by the dearth burial and resurrection of the messiah. Faith rest in this accomplished fact, it does not do something to make it an accomplished fact <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> Thats why I know you are misrepresenting what I am saying, because there is nothing you can do to be saved ! christ did it all already for his people and thats the good news. As stated before, you and pilgrim and some of the rest, not robin though , have twisted what I have said. The muslim in 2006, when he believes the gospel of HIS SALVATION , believes at the appointed time and MAKES MANIFEST his already accomplished salvation. Prior to 2006 , when he was still worshipping allah and all that , he manifested at that time that he was still in a darkened , unconverted state ! Not that he had to yet do something or yet believe something inorder to get saved, that happended at the cross, when his messiah said IT IS FINISHED. But it was not revealed to him yet through the gospel...I hope I have made myself clearer, I know I have to those who have been following along with an honest and open mind, May the God Of Israel be Glorified!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


Last edited by beloved57; Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:25 PM.

Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me葉he task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33180 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:06 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: beloved57]  
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Darryl, this dance has to come to an end. Obviously you ave not read a shread of my postings in regards to how your thoughts mirror exactly the error the new england puritans fell into when admitting people to the communion of the church. Which later led to the terrible "half way covenant" One must never have to answer a questionairre to be added to Christs church. This is what you are proposing. Now please do not deny this. According to your twisted understanding, a professor is not part of the elect until examined by others to prove their genuine regeneration/conversion. I will qualify this that some examination is needed. But this became so perverted by people throughout history, one began to learn what to say in order to be admitted. One must be able to say shibboleth in your vernacular to be considered elect.

12, 4 Then Jephthah gathered together all the men of Gilead, and fought with Ephraim: and the men of Gilead smote Ephraim, because they said, Ye Gileadites are fugitives of Ephraim among the Ephraimites, and among the Manassites.

5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, art thou an Ephraimite? If he say Nay;

6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

You constantly mention Paul, well let me ask you this, the true Doctor of Grace that Paul is, still purified himself on Acts 21. I have read many commentators who sidestep this occurrance, but noone I have read gives a solid answer here.

Acts 21:23-24
23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them,
NKJV

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them. 27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia...


Why would Paul do this who so denounced the ceremonialism of the jews? According to you this would prove he believed in a false gospel.

read this link please and hopefully you will see your error

http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html

a quote:

the signs of grace which the earlier English Puritans had treated as means to personal assurance of salvation became the necessary evidence for convincing one痴 fellow-Christians and persuading them to admit one to the church covenant.

DOnt you see you are exclaiming the exact same thing?

I know this is a hobby horse for you. It is something new, a novelty. Soon you will run our of gas and it will be gone.


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#33181 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:45 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: Joe k]  
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I have no more to say. I have stated clearly and concisly my stand about this issue of the gospel. Lets move on.
The Gospel is a proclamation of what Christ has done to save his people, It is finished and they are saved, and when in Gods time, They will believe it and realize it by Faith. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me葉he task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33182 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:58 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: beloved57]  
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Quote
beloved57 said:
The Gospel is not an offer to do something to get saved, it`s a proclamation of an establihed fact, Gods people are saved by the dearth burial and resurrection of the messiah. Faith rest in this accomplished fact, it does not do something to make it an accomplished fact

None are so blind than those who will not see! Your view of salvation is one that is shared in part with the heretic Karl Barth, albeit phrased in different language. The "elect, elect" he taught, were those who have come to realize in time that God has saved them in eternity and that faith accomplishes nothing. Man, you have gone beyond sticking your foot in your mouth to shooting yourself in the foot this time! [Linked Image] For you clearly stated your position once again, "[ala: death burial and resurrection of the Messiah] "Faith rest in this accomplished fact." While the Scripture tesifies against you and teaches that faith rests in the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.

You insist that salvation is not dependent upon one knowing correct doctrine, but you then turn around and accuse me, and my inference all who had a similar experience, including the Apostle Paul, of not even being regenerate at the time of my Spirit wrought conversion. Would you deny that an Amyraldian is saved? (in case you aren't familiar with the term, it is someone who is affectionately known as a 4 1/2 point Calvinist. He would say that Christ died for all but the merits of His death are only applied to believers. In fact we could substitute any of the infamous "Five Points" and ask the same question... e.g., is one who believes all but the doctrine of Unconditional Election saved? If you would dare to say, "No!" then you have proven the odious truth that you hold to "salvation by doctrine" and not "Sola Gratia, Sola Fide and Solus Christus", the very heart of biblical Christianity where by grace through faith ye are saved; ala Scripture.

In His grace, (not doctrine)


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#33183 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:51 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: beloved57]  
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Quote
beloved57 said:

again , you don`t get the point, believing a false gospel only proves at that time you are not yet in a converted state. <snip>

...you and pilgrim and some of the rest, not robin though , have twisted what I have said.


I find it interesting that you claim Pilgrim and some of the rest, not Robin though , have twisted what you have said. Let's review Robin's remarks and see how they are different.

Quote
Robin wrote:

"I too was regenerated, converted, adopted, sanctified, and sealed long before I discovered and converted to Calvinism."


So how does his testimony find acceptance with you when you doubted Pilgrims? Robin doesn't state he understood the doctrines of grace nor was he familiar with TULIP at the time of his conversion.

In your reply to Pilgrim's testimony you wrote: "You still have not convinced me that you heard it (refering to the true Gospel) back then when you said you first believed. Believed what ? You did not believe christ died for his people like it was prohesied. You did not believe in your depravity and hopelessness , you did not believe in sovereign grace, you did not believe Jesus was God. You basically heard that christ died for sinners,aand you felt bad about your sins."

Those are strong words. How is Pilgrim's testimony different than Robins?

You also wrote about your own experience in an earlier reply. You wrote: "I myself was religous and confessed a false christ of arminism in 1976, God brought me into a saving knowledge of the True christ in 1988. i had been to bible college and all that, but I count all dung like paul did, when the excellency of the right knowledge of the true christ flooded my soul...amen and amen."

So if I understand you correctly you're saying that even though you were a confessing Christian holding to Arminian doctrine that you weren't saved until you came to understand Calvinism. I think many Christians start out their pilgimage holding to some form of semi-pelagionism or even some other doctrinal error only later in their Christian life to discover that the Scriptures teach the depravity of man and the unconditional election of God. So then they abandon their former misunderstanding (count them rubbish) and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This doesn't mean they weren't elect or saved from the beginning only that they lacked understanding.

I don't think anyone here has a desire to twist anything you've written. It seems you've done a good job of that yourself. Surely you can tell this by the replies you're receiving. I think there has been a real effort to listen to you and respond with appropriate comments.

Quote
Now Robin went on to write:

"I would like to believe that what Beloved57 is trying to say is that sooner or later those who are truly regenerate inevitably become Calvinists, as surely as the regenerate inevitably confess Christ as Lord openly."


Has Robin understood you correctly? Is that what needs to be said?

Quote
Robin goes on to write:

"But reading post after post from Beloved57, he appears to be saying that a person has neither heard nor responded to Christ at all until and unless they were presented with the Five Points of Calvinism. Anything less is, to Beloved57, a false gospel and thus anyone who is not Calvinist isn't really saved.

You can't have it both ways. But the point is that belief in Calvinism does not save anyone. The gospel is a message about Jesus, not a technical manual describing how His work is applied to the elect; in what order the various aspects of salvation occur in time; when and how the Father chose the Elect, etc. The gospel is not a message about justification by faith, but that message about Jesus. When that message is received and believed by God-given faith resulting from regeneration, a person is converted and truly eternally saved. Even if they don't understand all the technical manuals.

Ligten up, Beloved57!"


How may I ask is that any different than what I hear Pilgrim, Joe K, J.Edwards, Paul, and Doulos saying?


Wes

#33184 - Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:58 PM Re: Salvation Before Calvinism [Re: beloved57]  
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beloved57 clearly states:
I have stated clearly and concisly my stand about this issue of the gospel.


And this is, of course, the crux of the problem. It's YOUR stand. Although you have stated it clearly, were you interested in more than just wagging your dogma around you would or if this was a vital piece of Christian Theology that had somehow been missed over the last two millenia I suppose you would participate in listening intently as well.

Now that you have "...have no more to say." go back through these posts and see just how much you missed. Then I might believe that this was more than just a waste of electrons.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#33185 - Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:48 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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A excellent presentation of the true gospel.

http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/exc/his1.html


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me葉he task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33186 - Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:16 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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beloved57 said:
A excellent presentation of the true gospel.

I agree! And the irony is that that article refutes all that you have written in this thread in an attempt to defend your unbiblical view(s) concerning the "true" gospel and how men are saved. Nowhere does the author state that one must come to believe in "Limited Atonement". Nowhere does the author write that salvation is the coming to the realization that God has chosen you before time. Nowhere does the author tell his hearers that salvation is the believing of the truth of which the gospel speaks, but rather the gospel declares Christ died for sinners to WHOM one must believe:

Quote
They hear Christ set forth in all His fullness and in all His glory, they hear that the more vile they are in their own sight, the more precious will Christ be to them; they hear that <span style="background-color:yellow">if they go to Christ naked</span>, He will clothe them; if they go unto Him hungry, He will feed them; and if they go unto Him thirsty, He will give them of the living waters, so that they shall not thirst again.

Thus the author is in full agreement with those who oppose you here in that one must believe upon the person of the Lord Jesus Christ directly. They must go to HIM directly, at which time they will be clothed [with His righteousness], and be fed and given living water.

Lastly, you have openly rejected the writings of all the authors who have written on the various subjects being discussed, e.g., Calvin, Pink, Murray, et al but here and in other places you provide links to writings of other men, who with few exceptions, are in full agreement with us and who reject your position. But why should we read the writings of these men over the writings of any other man?? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Methinks you are woefully confused and blinded by your own preconceived and erroneous ideas to the blessed of the truth.

In His grace,


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#33187 - Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:13 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Pilgrim]  
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its funny how we can pick out certain things and leave out certain things that the author brought out, so I hope those interested will read for themselves.

Tiptaft wrote and pilgrim neglected to bring up
Quote
We are first to inquire who are "his people" that He will save. We all by nature imagine that Christ died for everyone in the world, but He died only for those whom God chose in Him before the foundation of the world.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me葉he task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33188 - Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:27 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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Quote
beloved57 said:
its funny how we can pick out certain things and leave out certain things that the author brought out, so I hope those interested will read for themselves.

Tiptaft wrote and pilgrim neglected to bring up
Quote
We are first to inquire who are "his people" that He will save. We all by nature imagine that Christ died for everyone in the world, but He died only for those whom God chose in Him before the foundation of the world.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />


Do you honestly think Tiptaft was saying by the word inquire one must ask people what they believe before he taught them? Darryl, this is ridiculous. All he was doing was presenting the appication of Christs death for His chosen. There are a million writings like this. This has nothing to do with the thread. You have beome entangled in a web of deceit. One that has skewed your mind to such an extent that you are very alone. You obviously did not read the articles I posted. You have not comprehended one thing any have said here. IT is a sad state to see a man who claims to be chosen/elect, speak as such without humility and meekness. For some odd reason you are now concluding we are universalists.

AHA, I see what you are doing now. You are attempting to practice what you preach. You are doing an online sermon in this thread, which you believe must cover every minutia of the writ in one setting. You could find any test and say AHA, there is limited atonement. You are a bore and very base in your understanding.


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#33189 - Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:55 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Joe k]  
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wow you are funny bash Taft is just merely ascertaining what the writer of matt meant when he said HIS People !


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me葉he task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#51251 - Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:18 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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This is my first post dear friends of truth.

I attended a local Calvary Chapel worship service recently. The pastor spoke of grace repeatedly. I was very disappointed with what he did not speak of; but more so because I was unable to speak my thoughts; which has brought me here to The Highway.

God's mercy, true grace must, early in a believer's understanding, be coupled with a consciousness of sin. Is there today conviction by the Holy Spirit? Is there today a genuine sense of need for a Redeemer?

"And there you shall(earnestly)remember your ways and all your doings with which you have defiled yourselves, and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil deeds which you have done. And you shall know, understand and realize that I am the Lord, when I deal with you for My names's sake, not according to your corrupt doings. O house of Israel."(Amplified Version)Ezekiel 20:43-44

#51252 - Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:09 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: friendoftruths]  
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Originally Posted By: friendoftruths
God's mercy, true grace must, early in a believer's understanding, be coupled with a consciousness of sin. Is there today conviction by the Holy Spirit? Is there today a genuine sense of need for a Redeemer?

First of all

As to your statement above, I agree 100%. Unfortunately today, there is little or no mention whatsoever of sin and even more true about a person being a SINNER by birth from conception and under the just wrath and condemnation of God. The very first work the Holy Spirit does in the elect is to bring a heartfelt conviction that they are a hopeless and helpless sinner before God and without His grace and the righteousness of Christ imputed to them through faith, they are liable to eternal damnation. You will hear/read superficial statements concerning people being sinners, aka: they haven't lived up to God's requirements perfectly (at best), or more often, they are "separated from God" but God loves them just the way they are... etc., etc., ad nauseam.

The Lord Christ was very specific about this matter when He said:

Quote:
John 16:8 (ASV) "And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"



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