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Tom
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#51474 - Fri May 22, 2015 3:04 PM Eschatology Question  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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I belong to a Church that I really appreciate for their high view of Scripture and how they want to grow each member of the local body into mature believers. They refuse to get sucked into the latest movements.
However, every once in a while it is clear from their view on Eschatology (historic Premillenial) that they are not fond of Amil position.
Last Wednesday's Bible study was a good example of this.
While my pastor asked us to turn to a specific Bible passage (sorry I can't remember the reference) he said this shows that the Amillennial view that claims there is no future for Isreal is wrong and it is clear from this and many other passages that there is indeed a future of Isreal.
While I am not sure how much I should say if anything to either my pastor or others concerning this, quite frankly I am not sure what to say.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks
Tom

Last edited by Tom; Fri May 22, 2015 3:06 PM.
#51475 - Sun May 24, 2015 3:26 AM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: Tom]  
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grace2U Offline
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It's hard to make a comment on this without knowing which passage of Scripture your pastor was referring to. However, I would say that Amils do not necessarily believe that there is 'no future for Israel,' whatever that means. Nothing stops God from bringing revival to Israel if that is His sovereign will.
What Amils are clear on, however, is that there is only one people of God (Gal. 3:28-29; Eph. 2:11ff). There is no special exalted position for believing Jews that believing Gentiles don't have, and no different way of salvation for unbelieving Jews that is not available to unbelieving Gentiles (Rom. 10:12).
I suggest that you have a friendly chat with your pastor and ask him to clarify his comments. If he would remind you of the text he was commenting on, that would be helpful as well.

Steve


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#51476 - Sun May 24, 2015 6:03 AM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: Tom]  
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1. As grace2U correctly wrote, there are some Amils who believe there will be a time when a large number of Jews will be converted near the time when Christ returns. [I am not one of them] grin ... although it certainly could happen if that is what God has ordained.

2. Again, I stand with grace2U re: "There is no special exalted position for believing Jews...". In fact, I would go further and say that there is no special position, place nor anything else concerning Jews nor Israel as a nation. The nation of Israel was formed by God for a purpose, the most important being a lineage of God's people that would terminate with the Messiah, Christ Jesus. The physical benefits which God had promised Israel, e.g., the giving of the "land" were all fulfilled (cf. Josh 21:43-45), and which would continue depending upon continued faithfulness (faith & obedience) to God. Sadly, after repetitive warnings and eventual punishments which brought a partial repentance and restoration on the part of the nation as a whole, it was abandoned by God and left to its apostasy into idolatry [cf. Hos 1:9].

3. There are at least a couple of articles which we have on The Highway that deal with this topic; the future restoration of Israel. They can be found in the Eschatology section of Calvinism and the Reformed Faith.

4. The passage your pastor referenced may have been Rom 11:25&26, which is one of the most quoted by Premils and Dispies:

Quote:
Romans 11:25-26 (ASV) For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Regardless whether this was the passage referenced, Lee Irons deals with the premise that there will be an outpouring of God's grace upon the Jews and they will be converted en masse in the 'last day', based upon what Paul wrote in Romans 11, which you can read here: Paulís Theology of Israelís Future: A Nonmillennial Interpretation of Romans 11.



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#51477 - Sun May 24, 2015 5:34 PM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: grace2U]  
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Tom Offline
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I think I can safely say that my pastor doesn't believe that there are two different ways of salvation depending on whether or not one is a Jew or Gentile. Especially seeing the first Christians were Israelites.

Tom

#51478 - Sun May 24, 2015 5:42 PM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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Pilgrim
Quote:
1. As grace2U correctly wrote, there are some Amils who believe there will be a time when a large number of Jews will be converted near the time when Christ returns.

If I remember correctly D. Martyn Lloyd Jones was one of them; although I donít remember any of his arguments for believing that.
Thanks for the information.
Tom

#51480 - Mon May 25, 2015 6:20 AM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: Tom]  
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grace2U Offline
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That is good. What we need to know then is precisely what he means when he says that Amils think that Israel is finished.

Whilst I am not in agreement with Historic Premillennialism, it is generally regarded as an orthodox position on eschatology and I certainly wouldn't fall out with anyone over it. It is much preferable to Dispensationalism or (even worse!)Hyper-preterism eek

Steve


Itinerant Preacher & Bible Teacher in Merrie England.
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#51481 - Mon May 25, 2015 10:16 AM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: grace2U]  
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Steve,

What you stated regarding the Historic Premills is what I have read as well. What would be the difference between the Historic Premills and the Dispensational Premills views. I take it that they would both agree on the 1,000 years, but maybe not the rapture. I somewhat know the Dispy Premill view, but pretty vague on the Historic Premill view.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
#51482 - Mon May 25, 2015 5:22 PM Re: Eschatology Question [Re: Tom]  
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grace2U Offline
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Well John,
I wouldn't pass myself off as an expert on Historic Premil, but my understanding is that it sees the Church as going through the Tribulation and doesn't see the Church Age as a parenthesis as traditional Dispensationalists do. However, they do see a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ followed by a rebellion led by Satan.

G.E. Ladd is usually touted as the doyen of Historic Premils.


Itinerant Preacher & Bible Teacher in Merrie England.
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