The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Facebook Question

I was wondering if you could answer a question I have. I love studying about the reformation and listening to and reading reformed ministers, but there is something that bothers me. With the exception of John MacArthur, reformed ministers seem to be apathetic when it comes to Israel and her future and towards prophecy in general. Am I imagining this? ... This is a question that was submitted on Facebook,.. I would love to assist and I thought the best place to get a solid reply would be to share it on the Highway!

1. MacArthur is a Dispensationalist so of course he would have an interest in Israel as a nation and its future.

2. There are some Presbyterians who are Historic Premillennialists, e.g., Bible Presbyterian Church and The Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland who also have an interest in the nation of Israel and its future.

3. There are some Amillennialists who think that the nation of Israel has a 'special' future as well.

4. Personally, I do not see the nation of Israel as having a distinct future. And I do not believe that the Jews are anyone special in regard to God. I hold to Amillennialism and believe that the nation of Israel was divorced by God due to its incessant unbelief and idolatry. The Church consists of believing Jews and Gentiles and when the full number of Gentiles are brought in, "all Israel" will be saved Rom 11:26 cf. Paul's Theology of Israel's Future and A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism.

Like Pilgrim I hold to the amil position and what he stated is basically what I hold to be the biblical eschatological position.
I do however need to say that when it comes to this subject, i have found that almost everyone in all eschatological positions are leaky (for lack of a better word) when it comes to the Church and Isreal.
For example, even some Dispensationalists would affirm that the Church consists of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.
In the Reformed Baptist Church I attend, the majority eschatological position seems to be Historic Premillennialism, they believe that the Church is made up of believing Jews and engrafted believing Gentiles. But they also believe that in he future many Jews will be brought into the Church (true Isreal).

By the way, if you ever hear/read the accusation that Amillennials believe in Replacement theology. Just role your eyes, because the terms "true Isreal" and "the Church" are interchangeable. The Church does not replace Isreal.
As Paul says in Romans chapter 9
""For they are not all Isreal which are of Isreal...."
Tom

Pilgrim,

I share your understanding that amillennialism aligns with scripture, and that the church is the "Israel of God" - where there is no distinction of Jew nor Greek.

But I disagree that national Israel "doesn't matter"... sheer observation of world politics and influence of Christian evangelical (dispensationalist) eschatology, begs notice and response.

Eschatology is downplayed among amillennialists, perhaps steering believers from the pitfalls of fear-mongering heresy. But the prevalence and political strength of Judaized Christian eschatology concerning national Israel, *ironically (now) must matter. And that it should matter, morally, spiritually and politically. The church is called to expose darkness.

I've learned that certain Reformed denominations have put together educational material for congregants explaining how Christian Zionism is a deception and force that distorts the truth of the gospel and imperils innocent lives and peace on our planet. It was our Lord that said "Blessed are the peacemakers". I am also aware that certain Reformed denominations have actively sanctioned against illegal Israeli settlement building on Palestinian land.

Yet, many Christian Americans voters, including Ammillennial voters express confounding sentiments, such as believing that staunchly pro-Israel Ted Cruz represents "Christian values". These are the only types of Christians I ever see in politics at the national level... candidates that would please John Hagee and AIPAC. Dispensationalist conservative. When it comes to American voters "blessing Israel".. Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative doesn't seem to matter.

1. Who are you disagreeing with? It surely isn't me . I have reread my response to McKinley several times and I cannot find anywhere those words "national Israel 'doesn't matter'" or anything akin to them.

2. My response was focused upon the theological arena and not the social. Yes, those who are given to the various expressions of Zionism have an ongoing interest in Israel in world politics. In fact, many go so far as to interpret Scripture through the spectacles of 'current events'. This preoccupation with National Israel is actually a recent phenomena which was popularized by Charles Nelson Darby and even more so by C.I. Scofield. At the same time (1800s) the cults arose and deceived many by the teachings of such individuals as Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen White, ... and let's not forget Charles Finney who succeeded in decimating the doctrinal base of the Church and introduced a false gospel which is still embraced by the majority of professing Christians in our day. It seems that during that era, Satan was given some 'freedom' to deceive the church, perhaps to purge some of the dross so that the Church would be more recognizable? Of course, this same 'blending' of the Church and the world is again happening in our own day.

3. I am among a small group that has maintained God's divorce of Israel as a nation due to its incessant idolatry and unbelief and served its purpose in bringing forth the Messiah who came to redeem His Church which consists of both Jews and Gentiles. Thus NATIONAL Israel is of no importance in regard to God and His eternal plan of redemption.

4. So, National Israel is certainly a major interest to those holding to Premillennialism to one degree or another, but again my point is that Israel as a nation is of no particular importance to God where it is going to be given special attention at some future date.

That's my

Pilgrim,

I feel that there is a moral apathy among amillennialists in general concerning national Israel and Christian Zionism and the New World Order.

The RCC and Orthodox church have historically condemned a belief in a literal millennium and hold that the Jews are apostate in their rejection of Jesus. So, although amillennialism might be a minority view among Protestants, it is a substantial viewpoint. It was only relatively recent that the Vatican stated something radically different... that the Jews still hold covenantal status with God.

I think earthly Israel does matter theologically, eschatologically, politically and morally. The context and mystery of grace, election, faith, covenants, kingdoms, earthly Jerusalem vs. heavenly New Jerusalem is especially *now manifesting before us. I think it's a question mark and a test on many levels.

When it comes to salvation national Jews hold no advantage over Gentiles. However their advantage comes because they were entrusted with the oracles of God. (Romans 3:1-3)

Tom