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Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19842
Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:42 AM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:42 AM

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averagefellar,

Quote
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

Act 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)


Yes, however, the first one of I John, the presumption is that one already has the Truth in order to test other teachings. You are first interpreting it, then testing to see if all others match your interpretation.

Second one is the same. The Bereans were simply going back to the OT which Paul was quoting to see if he was correct. They were not interpreting against what Paul was teaching. Again, one must know truth before one can rightly divide.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19843
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:00 AM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:00 AM

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You may look here, Total Depravity with scriptural support and show us all how wrong we are.


God bless,

william

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19844
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:47 AM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:47 AM
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CovenantInBlood Offline
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Sojourner,

Quote
sojourner said:
covenantintheblood,

We adhere to the Church Fathers. They have not left the teachings of the Apostles. You gave two quotes, St J. Chrysostom where he uses the phrase "faith alone". St Basil however, puts the correct wording of what faith alone actually means, that is "faith alone in Christ".
The Church has always adhered to the justification by faith.
The Church in the last 500 years does not use the alone any longer when using faith because it does not mean what the protestants have made it to mean. It is neither a simple faith, nor a faith alone. It is the protestants who have left the fold of the fathers and have isolated its meaning to a simple faith, a one-time event in the life of the believer, which it is not.
Therein we have always denied the protestant understanding of 'faith alone" as did and do the Roman Catholics.
You will never find "faith alone" ever written in the Bible except in the negative in James 2:24.
However, the only way to correctly phrase it is as in Rom 5:1 , Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Eph 2:8 and many more.


The amount of confusion in this thread grows by the minute, it would seem. confused Speratus is the one you mean to reply to, not me.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19845
Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:11 AM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:11 AM
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sojourner

I am curious as to what you believe Protestants (particularly Reformed Protestants) mean when they say "faith alone".

Tom

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19846
Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:37 AM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:37 AM

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Quote
sojourner said:
St Basil however, puts the correct wording of what faith alone actually means, that is "faith alone in Christ".
The Church has always adhered to the justification by faith. The Church in the last 500 years does not use the alone any longer when using faith because it does not mean what the protestants have made it to mean.


So the Orthodox Church stopped teaching, as St. Basil had, that man is "justified by faith alone in Christ" to avoid any confusion with the "justification by faith alone in Christ alone" being taught by the Protestants? Wouldn't it have been better to retain the formulation of St. Basil and explain to the Protestants where they had erred?

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19847
Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:14 PM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:14 PM

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speratus,

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So the Orthodox Church stopped teaching, as St. Basil had, that man is "justified by faith alone in Christ" to avoid any confusion with the "justification by faith alone in Christ alone" being taught by the Protestants? Wouldn't it have been better to retain the formulation of St. Basil and explain to the Protestants where they had erred?

No, we have not stopped teaching it at all. We just never use the simple understanding in writing that it is 'faith alone" as the protestants understand.
The protestants have not changed in 500 years, does it look like they might in future, doubtful.
It is either saved by faith, or by faith in Christ alone, but never by 'faith alone".

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19848
Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:24 PM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:24 PM

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Tom,

My understanding of what some believe and there are several variations of it, but generally, believe that man is saved to eternity upon the simple ascent of faith. That it is a one-time event in ones life. This has led to the erronous teaching of OSAS. Faith in and of itself does not save, it justifies the believer to God. It also leads to the idea that the good works is the result of faith or product of faith.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19849
Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:00 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:00 AM
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sojourner

You obviously missed speratus's meaning.
Protestants believe in faith alone in Christ alone.

Tom

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19850
Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:07 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:07 AM

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Quote
sojourner said:
speratus,

Quote
So the Orthodox Church stopped teaching, as St. Basil had, that man is "justified by faith alone in Christ" to avoid any confusion with the "justification by faith alone in Christ alone" being taught by the Protestants? Wouldn't it have been better to retain the formulation of St. Basil and explain to the Protestants where they had erred?

No, we have not stopped teaching it at all. We just never use the simple understanding in writing that it is 'faith alone' as the protestants understand.
The protestants have not changed in 500 years, does it look like they might in future, doubtful.
It is either saved by faith, or by faith in Christ alone, but never by 'faith alone'.


You would be hard pressed to find a Protestant who believes that faith is ever alone or that faith is ever separated from the object of faith (i.e., Christ). Protestants are "protesting" the Roman departure from St. Basil, "recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ." Surely, the Orthodox Church does not agree with justification by works of the Papacy (i.e., indulgences, satisfactions, merits of the Saints, purgatory, priestly offering up of the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead, etc.)?

Last edited by speratus; Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:55 AM.
Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19851
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:28 PM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:28 PM

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speratus,

Quote
You would be hard pressed to find a Protestant who believes that faith is ever alone or that faith is ever separated from the object of faith (i.e., Christ). Protestants are "protesting" the Roman departure from St. Basil, "recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ." Surely, the Orthodox Church does not agree with justification by works of the Papacy (i.e., indulgences, satisfactions, merits of the Saints, purgatory, priestly offering up of the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead, etc.)?


I don't know all the changes the Romans made in their interpretations of either Scripture or the Original Tradition of the Church. If you say that the Romans departed from St Basil, then there must have been a change. The Church, the Orthodox Church adheres to the teaching of St Basil. He is recognized as a Father of the Church because He remained within the faith of the generations before Him.
I believe I stated above serveral times that we do in fact believe in justification by faith. Christ did the work of redemption, man simply needs to believe and accept by faith.

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? #19852
Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:20 PM
Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:20 PM

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sojourner,

Quote
The Church, the Orthodox Church adheres to the teaching of St Basil. He is recognized as a Father of the Church because He remained within the faith of the generations before Him.


And because he put scripture above the tradition of the Fathers?

Quote
We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.
St. Basil the Great (On the Holy Spirit, Chapter 7, par. 16)

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? [Re: Anonymous] #52335
Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:37 PM
Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:37 PM
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jaf Offline
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maine
I think it would go a long way toward helping us better understand your words if you would answer the question from an earlier post. What church do you attend,if any at all. The word orthodox is placed before many churches in this country i.e.Orthodox Presbyterian Church. What is the name and denomination of your church? Are you purposely hiding it? Come clean sir,please. Thanks

Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? [Re: jaf] #52336
Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:01 PM
Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:01 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted By: jaf
I think it would go a long way toward helping us better understand your words if you would answer the question from an earlier post. What church do you attend,if any at all. The word orthodox is placed before many churches in this country i.e.Orthodox Presbyterian Church. What is the name and denomination of your church? Are you purposely hiding it? Come clean sir,please. Thanks

1. He is referring to the Greek Orthodox Church.

2. You won't be getting a reply because this person is long gone.


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Re: Limited or Unlimited Atonement??? [Re: Pilgrim] #52337
Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:00 PM
Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:00 PM
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maine
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maine
Thanks Pilgrim.

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