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#34990 - Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:35 AM Re: The Gifts and cessation [Re: C_R]  
Joined: Dec 2007
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EricM Offline
Plebeian
EricM  Offline
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AZ, USA
I've been fascinated over the past 30 years or so with the arguments for cessation. They almost always seem to deal with a portion of the subject as opposed to the whole of the subject.
When Paul wrote about his prayer language it is obvious from context that he recognized 2 distinct types of utterance gifts. One to be practiced in private between the believer and God and one that had a public purpose, possibly the translation of foreign language or speaking in a foreign language, both having been not from learning, for the edification of the congregation. As to prophesy I have not seen anyone entertain the possibility that there could be prophesy for the Universal Church (Christendom) which comes from disciples ie Scripture whereas the charismatic gift of prophesy might be for the edification and guidance of the local congregation. Such as whether it was truly the Lord's will to purchase that new property, etc. Obviously all such prophesy would need to be tested against the principles of Scripture (anyone prohesying that you should lie or steal would be a FALSE prophet). I'm leery about any exegetical machinations that result in scripture being interpreted to mean something that it does not clearly state somewhere itself. I spent almost two decades in formal theological study and have seen some theologians, a few of them famous, wrench scripture around so as to satisfy the proclivities of whatever the institution was with which they might be involved.
If someone is truly healed by a person recognized by elders in a Christian bible believing church I'm not gonna be the guy to tell them they're not really healed and I wouldn't, nor should any of you, attribute that work of the Holy Spirit to "OTHER" than God, things could get really "warm" for you, if you know what I mean.
By the way I got no dog in this hunt. I haven't been blessed with any of those gifts and I'm every bit as reformed, maybe even a bit moreso, than all those famous theologians


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#34991 - Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:26 AM Re: The Gifts and cessation [Re: EricM]  
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
The Boy Wonder

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Quote
I'm leery about any exegetical machinations that result in scripture being interpreted to mean something that it does not clearly state somewhere itself.


That being the case, you must reject all doctrines that are arrived at by "good and necessary consequence" rather than explicitly stated. Like the tri-unity of God, for example.

"Good and necessary consequence" (borrowing the term from Westminster) is simply a description of deduction:

All normal dogs have four legs. - Explict axiom;
Spot is a normal dog. - Explicitly stated;

Therefore it is necessarily true that Spot has four legs, even though it may not be explictly stated in exactly those words. It nevertheless must be true because of what we know from comparing other facts with each other.

But we're referring to the charismata when we talk about cessation, not to the continuing works of healing sick bodies and minds, or the Lord leading His sheep.

-Robin

#52114 - Tue May 17, 2016 1:29 PM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Robin]  
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Doc for Kenya Offline
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Doc for Kenya  Offline
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Hi Robin, et al:

I am an Ex-Charismatic and now a Reformed Baptist but have always been a part of OPC and ARP. Hard to believe I was in Charismatic movement for over 20 years and some of that as a pastor. It was very hard to deny what I thought I had experienced as a Charismatic. God used the site Reformation.org and some of the Puritan, Calvinist writings to eventually make me examine the Word more closely. A Calvinist view puts a structure and harmony to scripture that helps answer the nagging questions that an Arminian framework cannot.

Doc

#52117 - Tue May 17, 2016 5:33 PM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Doc for Kenya]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

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The unfortunate truth is found in the old adage:

A man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience!

Jesus said, John 8:31-32 (ASV) "Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, [then] are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."


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#52320 - Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:54 PM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim
It has been a while sinse I looked at this forum.
Your quote shows a truth that Charismatics should take into account.
However as an ex-Charismatic, I know all too well until and only until God changes a person, they will not be ready to leave the Charismatic Movement, let alone Arminianism.
No Charismatic that I know of would admit that they believe experience trumps the Word of God. Instead most believe that experience shows how we should interpret Scripture.
The ironic of the whole matter is that a truth that a former Pentecostal pastor said during a sermon was largely responsible for me eventually leaving the movement.
He said in rather dramatic fashion: " Don't believe something because I said it, believe it because the Word of God said it!!"

#52326 - Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:37 PM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Tom]  
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Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

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Originally Posted By: Tom
Your quote shows a truth that Charismatics should take into account.
However as an ex-Charismatic, I know all too well until and only until God changes a person, they will not be ready to leave the Charismatic Movement, let alone Arminianism.
No Charismatic that I know of would admit that they believe experience trumps the Word of God. Instead most believe that experience shows how we should interpret Scripture.
The ironic of the whole matter is that a truth that a former Pentecostal pastor said during a sermon was largely responsible for me eventually leaving the movement.
He said in rather dramatic fashion: " Don't believe something because I said it, believe it because the Word of God said it!!"

Interesting response, Tom.

1. I offer a propositional statement/adage: "A man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience.", and you respond with your experience. giggle

2. Then you go on to prove my point quite effectively with:

Originally Posted By: Tom
No Charismatic that I know of would admit that they believe experience trumps the Word of God. Instead most believe that experience shows how we should interpret Scripture.

That statement accredits experience with 'trumping' Scripture for the experience has authority over how one reads and understands Scripture. If I were to offer a similar argument, e.g., Science trumps Scripture and therefore it controls how you interpret Scripture which thus proves theistic evolution... what would you say then? scratchchin

3. The adage is certainly taught in Scripture and thus trumps your experience. rofl

Quote:
John 6:26-36 (ASV) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.

The teachings of Jesus took second place to what the onlookers experienced. And even after they were rebuked for doing so, they responded to what he said with 'What then doest thou for a sign,..." rolleyes2

4. Yes, until God changes one's heart experience will always trump an argument, thus those who are yet dead in sin will rely upon something, anything other than the TRUTH, which was and is my point. evilgrin


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#52338 - Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:22 AM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim

I was agreeing with you,not supporting the experience of Charismatics.
I read what I wrote again I tried to understand why I got the response I did and to be quite frank I am not sure.
Yes, I was speaking about my experience as a former charismatic and about other charismatics, but I was trying to say that the Word of God always trumps experience.
Obviously I didn't get that points out clearly enough.

Tom

#52339 - Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:56 AM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Robin]  
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chestnutmare Offline
Annie Oakley
chestnutmare  Offline
Annie Oakley

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Posts: 2,870
NH
Exactly. We have a tendency to use our experience to verify the truth of something and that was the point he was making. smile God's Word is absolutely true period and doesn't require our personal experience to verify it. The Truth stands firm in all of time and space and is not dependent on the experiences of anybody. Rather, we are to be changed by the Word of God. I love John 17:17 where Jesus is praying for His people and says "Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth."

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God. 17 And whatsoever ye do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him"


The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
#52341 - Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:09 PM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: chestnutmare]  
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I guess where I am confused is where in my post was I verifying truth by experience?

#52362 - Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:08 AM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Tom]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,314
NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I guess where I am confused is where in my post was I verifying truth by experience?

Your original statement is HERE.

And my explanation of how you essentially countered the statement: "A man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience." is HERE, where you referred to your experience of being in the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement and your experience of discussing things with others within the movement who intepret Scripture on the basis of their experience... Thus, experience trumps propositional truth and Scripture's own hermeneutic; method of interpretation.


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#52365 - Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:06 PM Re: This Forum's Focus and Purpose [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,324
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim
If that is how you understood me, then I am afraid that I not a good communicator.
I was basically only trying to say that Penicostals generally use experience to interpret Scripture, yet they may not even be realize they are doing so.
When I started to become aware of this, over time I could no longer be a Charismatic.
Tongues was something that in my subjective experience made me feel closer to God. However, dispite this my experience and what I was reading in Scripture was at odds.
Eventually even though I really missed it, I stopped speaking in tongues.

This is one reason why the Charismatic Movement is so dangerous. In fact, there are some of my family members, who concider me backslidden because of this matter.
My sister rebuked me soundly once when I tried to tell her what Benny Hinn believed about the Trinity and also stated that the only reason why I would say something like that about "God's anointed" is because I am no longer Charismatic.
Tom

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