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Tom
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#54163 - Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:52 PM Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse?  
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PerpetualLearner Offline
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This is my first post so if I err, please feel free to correct me. I was stunned to read that one Ralph Drollinger is leading Bible studies with leaders of the Administration. From what I read of the teacher, Ralph Drollinger, he would be a Dispensationalist, which to me means Zionism, and isn't this a violation of Church and State to have such teachings brought into our capital directed at our government leaders? I had recently come to the belief personally that these 'prophecy preachers' are false prophets who are looking to bring back the Old Covenant in a 1000 year reign. I read several news pages including the following: http://capitolweekly.net/capitol-ministries-replaced-by-new-nationwide-christian-group/ Am I being too critical about this?


Ned
#54164 - Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:15 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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1. Methinks it is inconsistent to have a ban prohibiting prayer and/or Bible studies in public schools, although I have read that some schools allow such after hours. But that is apparently a rare thing... and yet allow religious "leaders" to actually teach in the White House. IF the teaching was orthodox, I wouldn't complain. grin

2. IF someone is actually making "predictions" (prophesying) future events, then they could be designated as "false prophets". Newspaper headline eschatology is futile at best and heretical by definition since the LORD Christ made it very clear that no man knows the hour or day of His return. We are given general indications of what is to occur during the "last days", which have often been witnessed throughout the centuries. The main purpose of those indications are predominantly to warn the Church to be ready and sinners to repent as the end could come at any time.

3. Lastly, I agree that Dispensationalism in most of its variations expects a literal 1000 years where the Old Testament sacrifices will be practiced again, etc. It is a denial of the perfect satisfaction that Christ has made in behalf of those who have been predestinated to salvation. The Dispensationalist understanding of the literal 1000 year millennialism is a regression rather than the biblical progression of divine revelation which consistently points to the consummation.


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#54165 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:41 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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Not all Dispensationists are Zionists.
Although, John MacArthur's Dispensationism is wrong, if it was him in the Whitehouse, I would probably be happy.

#54167 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:49 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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What is the distinction you are making between a Dispensationalist and a Zionist? You mention John MacArthur as if he is not a zionist, but his study Bible teaches what I understand to be Zionism. On Josh. 21:43-45 he states "But God's people failed to exercise their responsibility and possess their land to the full degree in various areas." Yet, in Josh. 23:14b it reads: ď... not one thing has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you; all have come to pass for you, not one of them has failed." (Josh 23:14, NRSV) In MacArthur's Study Bible his commentary on Ezekiel 40-48 teaches the 1000 kingdom on earth with the renewed sacrifices and his note reads: "They will have missed the memorial of the Lord's Supper, but will then have their own memorial sacrifices for 1,000 years." Why would you have a memorial if Jesus is there with you in person in the 1,000 years? At 75 I'm still learning and refining my understanding of Scripture, so I look forward to more learning and refining as I read input from others. Thanks...


Ned
#54168 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:03 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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PerpetualLearner, I tend to agree with your response to Tom. But for both myself and others reading this thread, I would find it helpful if you provide your definition of "Zionist". I personally would like to know if we have the same understanding of the term. grin


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#54169 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:05 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: Tom]  
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I would support him being there, as he is overall a very good teacher of the scriptures, despite his "Leaky Dispy", as he calls it!
And is Zionism just a code for those who would not see Israel right to exist as a nation?

#54173 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:00 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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My basic understanding of Christian Zionism is it's the belief that God's Old Covenant people never fully possessed their land as promised in the Abrahamic Covenant, therefore, 1948 was the beginning of the complete fulfillment. Because of this, a Dispensationalist is at his very core a Zionist who cannot look at the Middle East turmoil with a balanced and fair perspective. The Christian Zionist views Israel's right to Statehood in Palestine as prophesied and unstoppable, therefore it is the Christian's duty to support it under all circumstances, regardless. But, it is a US Ally so I am not against us treating them as an Ally in a geo-political sense. The Christ rejecting people calling themselves the modern State of "Israel" are there because of God's decree for sure, but I see no biblical reason to think it is fulfillment of prophecy. I have problems even thinking they are truly Israel considering the following:

"Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is a dead thing to me and I am a dead man to the world. But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!" Galatians 6:14-16 Phillips NT

also

"For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God." (Rom 2:28-29 RSV)

I like how the Puritan John Trapp spoke of the Abrahamic Covenant on Gen. 15:28 -
"This was fulfilled in Solomonís, and especially in Christís kingdom."


Ned
#54174 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:22 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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I would agree with your definition. And I do believe that Israel received the land which was promised (cf. Gen 12:1-7; 13:14-17; 15:18-21; 17:8; Deut 12:9-10; Ps 105:11 and Josh 1:4; 15:1). And, that fulfillment was only to be good for as long as Israel kept faith in God which they didn't after Joshua died. However, not all Israel is Israel, but only those who have the faith of Abraham (cf. Rom 4:16f, 9:7,8; Gal 3:29). FYI, there are a number of excellent articles re: Dispensationalism/Premillennialism on the main website. You can find them by clicking on the link for "Calvinism and the Reformed Faith > Eschatology". grin


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#54176 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:38 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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Tom Offline
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Put that way, I guess I might call it Zionism myself.
Sometimes I do not know what to think about Israel as a nation in this day and age. Some people (usually Dispis) talk about Israel like they can do nothing wrong; which is clearly not the case.
I will say however, I feel for that nation, especially with all the hostile Islamic countries around it. Many have said they will not rest until every Jew is dead.
With that kind of threat over them, I can understand some of their aggression.

#54177 - Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:44 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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Put that way, I guess I might call it Zionism myself.
Sometimes I do not know what to think about Israel as a nation in this day and age. Some people (usually Dispis) talk about Israel like they can do nothing wrong; which is clearly not the case.
I will say however, I feel for that nation, especially with all the hostile Islamic countries around it. Many have said they will not rest until every Jew is dead.
With that kind of threat over them, I can understand some of their aggression.

In case I was not clear, I lean towards Amillennialism.

Tom

#54180 - Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:38 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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Tom, for years I also had not known what to think about Israel in Palestine today. I left my Scofield Dispensationalism 30-40 years ago, but I too wondered about Israel. If those men of God who believe there is to come a mass conversion of Jews in the future are correct, maybe God put them back into Palestine so it would be so obvious and visible. But over time I came to a view such as is taught in the commentary of Peter Pett, on Romans 11:14ff. That commentary is found on a very fine commentary site: http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/ Various things came together for me, such as my Dispensationalist sister sending me a couple of DVDs by a Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, a supposed Messianic Jew. I was greatly disturbed that she swallowed that garbage so I intensified my study. It was pointed out by someone online that the word "church" was put into the KJV by insistence of the King. Literally, in the YLT you can't find the word "church" anywhere in the Bible. From this view point, the Old Covenant people were the assembly or congregation of God; and, the New Covenant people are also the assembly or congregation of God. The New Covenant believers, elect Jew and elect Gentile make up the assembly of God today. We Gentiles were grafted into the congregation or assembly of God so there is just the one true Israel, all believers, Jew and Gentile. I see the assembly of Jews and Gentiles today as a continuation of God's people from the Old Testament. That is roughly how I am viewing this matter today, but am always open to refining my understanding. I view the eschatological viewpoints as theory or theological constructions so I am not dogmatic about historic pre-mil, a-mil or post-mil. I see Jesus telling us that on "the last day" is the resurrection and judgment. No signs are given to alert us when the last day will happen as were given to the disciples about the destruction of Jerusalem. I tend toward a post-mil view much like taught by J. Marcellus Kik in his book "An Eschatology of Victory". I accept as ringing true, David Scott Clark's commentary on Revelation which is preterist and post-mil, but I am partial preterist. I find my view of the character of the 1000 years is much like John Gill's view of 'the spiritual reign of Christ'. Yet, Gill is a historic premil as can be seen in his writings.

The Spiritual Reign of Christ - http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk5-ch14.html
and
The Personal Reign of Christ on the New Earth for 1000 years - http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk7-ch8.html

Sorry for being so verbose, but sometimes I seem to be keyed up and on a tear. smile


Ned
#54181 - Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:42 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim, forgive me for missing your "Welcome" on your first reply. Thank you!


Ned
#54184 - Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:17 AM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: Tom]  
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The problem is that in today's PC climate, any support for Israel gets deemed as being supporting Zionism,. and do think that they have a right to exist on that land, and that God still is in some fashion dealing with them there!

#54189 - Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:48 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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Tom Offline
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I think you misunderstood me. The Church is the true Israel! We as believing Gentiles have been grafted into the true Israel.
What I was referring to is seeing how Israel is a nation in the Middle East, are surrounded by Islamists that want Israel wiped off the face of the earth I can understand how the people of that nation feel.
My eschatological views are not what I had in mind on that particular issue.
Tom

#54190 - Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:53 PM Re: Christian Zionism being taught in the Whitehouse? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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What I would like to know, is what is being taught in the Whitehouse prayer meetings? If it is the pure unadulterated Gospel, I can put up with some Dispi thought.
I understand Mike Pence, went to Johm MacArthur's seminary. That indicates that he at least knows what the pure unadulterated Gospel is.
Tom

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