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#54257 - Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:10 PM Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy  
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Tom Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I was just made aware of something that is unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia concerning White Supremacy and racisim. At this point, because I don't know how reliable the source is, I don't want to comment. However, I thought I would put this out to others for comment.
http://www.dennyburk.com/a-time-for-moral-clarity/

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:11 PM.
#54265 - Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:12 PM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: Tom]  
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Originally Posted by Tom
I was just made aware of something that is unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia concerning White Supremacy and racisim. At this point, because I don't know how reliable the source is, I don't want to comment. However, I thought I would put this out to others for comment.
http://www.dennyburk.com/a-time-for-moral-clarity/

Tom


My closest, most dear friend is my housemate as well as being a Chinese immigrant. He is a Christian believer as well as a naturalized US citizen and is like a son to me. My closest online friend is a Christian black guy in Mombasa, Kenya who has seminary training in a Baptist school. Now, that being said, I consider myself a 'poor' WASP and also a son of the Confederacy since 2 of my ancestors from western Virginia fought for the South. So, I am not happy at politicians bending to radical agitators and removing statues of heroes of the Confederacy here in the south. I find the "dog whistle" remarks and labels to be very dishonest. I am white and I'm a nationalist, but I am not a bigot nor a racist. I do admit to being ethnocentric and see no way a Christian can be otherwise, such as "The Protestant or Puritan Work Ethic" and such viewpoints. Now, just as traditional Christians holding to historic views of prophecy are said to be 'guilty of Replacement Theology. In the same way 'white nationalist' seems to be misconstrued by pointing to extremist elements that can be found in any group. I try to stick to standard definitions, or at least be given the freedom to define my own words by some source authority. So:

From the Macmillan Dictionary -

"nationalism - 1, the wish for political independence of a group of people with the same language, culture, history, etc. ....Scottish nationalism"

"white - 2, a white person belongs to a race of people with pale skin.... a. relating to white people, or consisting of white people"

From The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

"ethnocentrism [(eth-noh- sen -triz-uhm)]

The belief that one's own culture is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured.

Note : Early social scientists in the nineteenth century operated from an ethnocentric point of view. So-called primitive tribes, for example, were studied by anthropologists to illustrate how human civilization had progressed from “savage” customs toward the accomplishments of Western industrial society."

I believe a nation has every right to regulate their immigration laws in order to preserve their culture, especially if the culture had a basically Christian or biblical foundation. The professor you referenced is at an SBC seminary that was founded by James P. Boyce, a strong Calvinist, 'supra' and he also owned slaves. I recently learned that George Whitefield also owned slaves. I follow the belief system on this as Robert L. Dabney does in his book "A Defense of Virginia and the South" , 1867. My Chinese friend has been disgusted by how media and politicians have reacted to Charlottesville as it is compared to their past reaction to BLM, Black Panthers in Philly threatening voters, Ferguson, etc. One last thought, I am concerned how the young man who drove into the protestors killing a woman has already been convicted in the media when in the mayhem it is hard to know this soon just what exactly did happen and that's why we have courts and a trial. Was he surrounded by violent, vicious people from whom he was desperate to escape? Now, I admit, I am very angry over how this awful tragedy is being reported, so I am not going to continue on this thread or my blood pressure will go sky high. frown


Ned
#54267 - Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:26 PM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: Tom]  
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Thanks for your input, it helps to educate me on this sensitive issue.
You will notice that I never commented on the issue. The reason I didn't is because I am too far removed from the situation; as I live in Canada. My view is that it is unwise to comment on things before you do your homework.
Concerning the Confederate flag, it is an issue that again I don't know very much about.
The way the media portrays it, sounds like it is represents racism. Yet over the years, I have known many people who are not racist and proudly fly the Confederate flag. So, I think as you indicated the racist side of the Confederacy is what stands out.
That being said, I wonder given the way society views the Confederacy flag, if it is wise to fly it?
Like it or not, a lot of misunderstanding goes with this subject and wisdom should be sought.
In a way it is kind of why I will not stand outside an abortion clinic and protest. Abortion is a blight on society; but many people who do the protesting, I do not want to be associated with.
Tom

#54269 - Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:52 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
Joined: May 2012
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goldenoldie Online content
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Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner


"ethnocentrism [(eth-noh- sen -triz-uhm)]

The belief that one's own culture is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured.

Note : Early social scientists in the nineteenth century operated from an ethnocentric point of view. So-called primitive tribes, for example, were studied by anthropologists to illustrate how human civilization had progressed from “savage” customs toward the accomplishments of Western industrial society."

I believe a nation has every right to regulate their immigration laws in order to preserve their culture, especially if the culture had a basically Christian or biblical foundation. The professor you referenced is at an SBC seminary that was founded by James P. Boyce, a strong Calvinist, 'supra' and he also owned slaves. I recently learned that George Whitefield also owned slaves. I follow the belief system on this as Robert L. Dabney does in his book "A Defense of Virginia and the South" , 1867. My Chinese friend has been disgusted by how media and politicians have reacted to Charlottesville as it is compared to their past reaction to BLM, Black Panthers in Philly threatening voters, Ferguson, etc. One last thought, I am concerned how the young man who drove into the protestors killing a woman has already been convicted in the media when in the mayhem it is hard to know this soon just what exactly did happen and that's why we have courts and a trial. Was he surrounded by violent, vicious people from whom he was desperate to escape? Now, I admit, I am very angry over how this awful tragedy is being reported, so I am not going to continue on this thread or my blood pressure will go sky high. frown


Hi Ned,

Thank you for speaking your mind. It is a breath of fresh air that I've been waiting for for a long time.

I am a newly naturalized Oriental who thinks that Western civilization (and culture) is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured—including my native culture, and that the form of US Constitutional government is head and shoulders above all others. Of course, I do not include cultural incidentals (or, as Aristotle called them, accidents) such as cuisine, literature, film, etc., which are subjective.

So what does that make me? Honestly, I don't care for an identity label except for the honor of being Christ's.

Aside: Dabney wrote the best analysis of property tax that I've ever read. And I'm also supra.


In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
#54270 - Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:07 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: goldenoldie]  
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Originally Posted by goldenoldie
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner


"ethnocentrism [(eth-noh- sen -triz-uhm)]

The belief that one's own culture is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured.

Note : Early social scientists in the nineteenth century operated from an ethnocentric point of view. So-called primitive tribes, for example, were studied by anthropologists to illustrate how human civilization had progressed from “savage” customs toward the accomplishments of Western industrial society."

I believe a nation has every right to regulate their immigration laws in order to preserve their culture, especially if the culture had a basically Christian or biblical foundation. The professor you referenced is at an SBC seminary that was founded by James P. Boyce, a strong Calvinist, 'supra' and he also owned slaves. I recently learned that George Whitefield also owned slaves. I follow the belief system on this as Robert L. Dabney does in his book "A Defense of Virginia and the South" , 1867. My Chinese friend has been disgusted by how media and politicians have reacted to Charlottesville as it is compared to their past reaction to BLM, Black Panthers in Philly threatening voters, Ferguson, etc. One last thought, I am concerned how the young man who drove into the protestors killing a woman has already been convicted in the media when in the mayhem it is hard to know this soon just what exactly did happen and that's why we have courts and a trial. Was he surrounded by violent, vicious people from whom he was desperate to escape? Now, I admit, I am very angry over how this awful tragedy is being reported, so I am not going to continue on this thread or my blood pressure will go sky high. frown


Hi Ned,

Thank you for speaking your mind. It is a breath of fresh air that I've been waiting for for a long time.

I am a newly naturalized Oriental who thinks that Western civilization (and culture) is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured—including my native culture, and that the form of US Constitutional government is head and shoulders above all others. Of course, I do not include cultural incidentals (or, as Aristotle called them, accidents) such as cuisine, literature, film, etc., which are subjective.

So what does that make me? Honestly, I don't care for an identity label except for the honor of being Christ's.

Aside: Dabney wrote the best analysis of property tax that I've ever read. And I'm also supra.


I was not going to answer to any replies here because it is a sensitive topic with me, including myself. But, since there seemed to be genuine interest on this topic, I'll post some reference material you can read online. The conservative Lutherans of the 19th century did not consider slavery in itself as sin. So, the following articles should be read to see my quotes in context.

19th Century Lutheran Scholar -
"Slavery, Humanism & the Bible" by C.F.W. Walther (1811-1887) First President of the LCMS:
"Is therefore slavery a sin which must be unconditionally opposed, or should Christians concentrate on doing away with the connected sinfulness, so that the relationship between slave and master is according to God’s will and order, according to the laws of justice, fairness, and love. We therefore hold that abolitionism, which deems slavery a sin and therefore considers every slave holder a criminal and strives for its eradication, is the result of unbelief in its development of nationalism, deistic philanthropy, pantheism, materialism, and atheism. It is a brother of modern socialism, Jacobinism and communism."

http://www.lutherquest.org/walther/articles/cfw00002.htm

19th Century Presbyterian Scholar -
"A Defense of Virginia and the South", by Professr Robert L. Dabney (1820-1898) American Christian theologian, Southern Presbyterian pastor, Confederate States Army chaplain - available online:

"One passage of the New Testament remains to be noticed. It is that which commands the exclusion of Abolitionist teachers from church communion, 1 Tim. vi.3-5. St. Paul had just enjoined on this young minister the giving of proper moral instruction to servants. The pulpit was to teach them the duty of subordination to masters, as to rightful authority; and if those masters were also Christians, then the obligation was only the stronger. See v.1,2. The apostle then proceeds, v. 3, 'If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,' (the opposite teaching of abolitionism contradicts Christ's own word,) 'he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.'" pages 185, 186

https://archive.org/details/defenceofvirgini00dabn

19th Century Southern Baptist Scholar -
James Petigru Boyce (1827-1888), founder of the first SBC seminary and author of Abstract of Systematic Theology

"I believe I see in all this the end of slavery. I believe we are cutting its throat, curtailing its domain. And I have been, and am, an ultra pro-slavery man. Yet I bow to what God will do. I feel that our sins as to this institution have cursed us, – that the Negroes have not been cared for in their marital and religious relations as they should be; and I fear God is going to sweep it away, after having left it thus long to show us how great we might be, were we to act as we ought in this matter."

http://www.podles.org/dialogue/james-petigru-boyce-3302.htm

Virginia was the first civil government to ban the slave trade, 1778 and look forward to the end of slavery:

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-02-02-0019

For a Bible based Christian, the Battle Hymn of the Republic is rank heresy, and it was the theology of the north:

http://www.hcsedu.com/ARTICLES/The_Anti-Christian_Battle_Hymn/


Ned
#54272 - Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:22 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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chestnutmare Offline
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NH
scratch1 Your comments puzzle me PerpetualLearner and so I have to ask you, do you embrace the teachings of kinism?


The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
#54273 - Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:34 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: chestnutmare]  
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Originally Posted by chestnutmare
scratch1 Your comments puzzle me PerpetualLearner and so I have to ask you, do you embrace the teachings of kinism?


I have never heard of "Kinism" so went to onelook.com to find out what you are talking about. It was not found in any dictionary, only coming up in Wikipedia. It seems to be a neologism based on statements from the:

Anti-Defamation League
Kathryn Joyce, a feminist who opposes biblical patriarchy (Featured in HuffPost, The Daily Beast, Motherjones, Slate)
Southern Poverty Law Center
Frank Schaeffer, see: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/us/20beliefs.html?mcubz=1
RJ Rushdoony, a theonomist, which I am not; but I agree with the article sited: http://faithandheritage.com/2011/05/rj-rushdoony-dont-apologize-for-your-ancestors/

Reviewing the references given to support this "Kinism" article I view it as a neologism, as defined below:

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=neologism

"Psychology
a. The invention of new words regarded as a symptom of certain psychotic disorders, such as schizophrenia.
b. A word so invented."

Or, the Merriam-Webster:

"psychology : a new word that is coined especially by a person affected with schizophrenia and is meaningless except to the coiner, and is typically a combination of two existing words or a shortening or distortion of an existing word"


Ned
#54274 - Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:35 PM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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"Kinism is a white supremacist interpretation of Christianity.[1] The ideology is a "movement of anti-immigrant, 'Southern heritage' separatists who splintered off from Christian Reconstructionism to advocate that God's intended order is 'loving one's kind' by separating people along 'tribal and ethnic' lines to live in large, extended-family groups." - Wikipedia

Is Interracial Marriage Sinful? (OPC): Question and Answer

CARM: What is Kinism? Is it Biblical?


In Defense of Kinism: Kinism: The Only Theonomy

_________________________________________

So, briefly... how does your ethnocentric, nationalism, white view differ from Kinism?


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#54275 - Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:22 PM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: Tom]  
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Thank you Pilgrim and I apologize for not defining the term. Given some of the things you [Perpetual Learner] were saying, I thought that maybe you might be familiar with this position.

Last edited by chestnutmare; Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:27 PM.

The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
#54278 - Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:45 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: chestnutmare]  
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Originally Posted by chestnutmare
Thank you Pilgrim and I apologize for not defining the term. Given some of the things you [Perpetual Learner] were saying, I thought that maybe you might be familiar with this position.


I read Robert L. Dabney's theology many years ago, but a paragraph in the front of the book has stayed with me in kernel form:

"The distribution of Theology into didactic, polemic, and practical, is sufficiently known. Now, all didactic inculcation of truth is indirect refutation of the opposite error. Polemic Theology has been defined as direct refutation of error. The advantage of this has been supposed to be, that the way for easiest and most thorough refutation is to systematize the error, with reference to its first principle, or prwton yeudo". But the attempt to form a science of polemics, different from Didactic Theology fails; because error never has true method. Confusion is its characteristic. The system of discussion, formed on its false method, cannot be scientific. Hence, separate treatises on polemics have usually slidden into the methods of didactics; or they have been confused. Again: Indirect refutation is more effectual than direct. There is therefore, in this course, no separate polemic; but what is said against errors is divided between the historical and didactic." Since so many cults began to form in the 19th century and continue mushrooming in our day, I find the idea of sticking to simple truths, the 'old paths' better than trying to understand all the errors of the day which continue to multiply. I include Theonomy and now Kinism in that category of error.

I did some google search on "Kinism" later, and as I read their articles, I'll stick with the definition of "neologism" I used previously. Just as extreme liberalism is a 'mental disorder', the extreme right-wing seems to be also. smile

1. I understand "race" is not even a term accepted in this day, and as far as I can tell, the Bible does not speak in terms of race. So, that is not a deciding factor for me, except in broad generalities.
2. I do know the Bible teaches that bad associations ruin morals and we are to avoid the violent man.
3. Even though the Bible does not speak of race as I understand it, the Canaanites were viewed wicked, because of their wicked religions. Paul spoke of the Cretans thus "Cretans are always liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons." Titus 1:12
4. By ethnocentrism I mean the culture formed by the Christian faith as it came into America, and language is important to culture, and it so happens English speakers at the time usually came from England who happen to be white.
5. I am a realist though. Before moving to Florida, I researched in depth the crime rates of areas in the county and the demographics down to the neighborhoods. I chose a 55+ community, white, largely Jewish & RCC. It is the safest here!
6. I had mentioned previously that Virginia was the first to pass a bill to ban the slave trade. Another fact, one of the first, if not the first slave owners in Virginia was black: http://www.blackpast.org/aah/johnson-anthony-1670
7. I do believe there are some differences between what are commonly called races. Blacks do seem to be more athletic. Chinese seem to be very good with math. The reason my Chinese friend originally contacted me 20+ years ago online, was to ask me to help him with his English and the western culture. I still help him with important business emails and letters, Yet, I have never been able to beat him in a game of Scrabble, even at the first. He not only wins, he skunks me! When he took his first job in the US, he was worried about his English. After a few weeks in southern Florida, in frustration he said, "I guess I should have spent time learning Spanish!" A nation without a standard, official language loses cohesiveness.

Now, that being said, I cannot see how we can accept immigration from people who are devout Muslims. Their religion is antithetic to our Constitution and American values, especially laws under our Constitution instead of Shariah, and our religious freedom. I believe America had a culture largely defined by the Bible and European influence. As this culture is adulterated with foreign values and religions, it destroys the USA, so I agree with President Trump, admit those who love the USA and our values. I know to many that makes me a racist, so be it.


Ned
#54279 - Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:04 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: goldenoldie]  
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Originally Posted by goldenoldie
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner


"ethnocentrism [(eth-noh- sen -triz-uhm)]

The belief that one's own culture is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured.

Note : Early social scientists in the nineteenth century operated from an ethnocentric point of view. So-called primitive tribes, for example, were studied by anthropologists to illustrate how human civilization had progressed from “savage” customs toward the accomplishments of Western industrial society."

I believe a nation has every right to regulate their immigration laws in order to preserve their culture, especially if the culture had a basically Christian or biblical foundation. The professor you referenced is at an SBC seminary that was founded by James P. Boyce, a strong Calvinist, 'supra' and he also owned slaves. I recently learned that George Whitefield also owned slaves. I follow the belief system on this as Robert L. Dabney does in his book "A Defense of Virginia and the South" , 1867. My Chinese friend has been disgusted by how media and politicians have reacted to Charlottesville as it is compared to their past reaction to BLM, Black Panthers in Philly threatening voters, Ferguson, etc. One last thought, I am concerned how the young man who drove into the protestors killing a woman has already been convicted in the media when in the mayhem it is hard to know this soon just what exactly did happen and that's why we have courts and a trial. Was he surrounded by violent, vicious people from whom he was desperate to escape? Now, I admit, I am very angry over how this awful tragedy is being reported, so I am not going to continue on this thread or my blood pressure will go sky high. frown


Hi Ned,

Thank you for speaking your mind. It is a breath of fresh air that I've been waiting for for a long time.

I am a newly naturalized Oriental who thinks that Western civilization (and culture) is superior to all others and is the standard by which all other cultures should be measured—including my native culture, and that the form of US Constitutional government is head and shoulders above all others. Of course, I do not include cultural incidentals (or, as Aristotle called them, accidents) such as cuisine, literature, film, etc., which are subjective.

So what does that make me? Honestly, I don't care for an identity label except for the honor of being Christ's.

Aside: Dabney wrote the best analysis of property tax that I've ever read. And I'm also supra.


Whoa, whoa there GoldenOldie, don't you know that in American 'pc' culture, calling someone an "Oriental" is pejorative? LOL Since I'm not 'pc', I use "Oriental" when thinking of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, that part of Asia. You must have been reading from some of Dabney's Discussions, correct? I remember reading a sermon Dabney preached to the Confederate troops, a night before a big battle. It was a powerful and moving sermon, to be preached in such circumstances! I believe it was in one of the volumes of his Discussions. If you are not aware already, many of Dabney's writings are online: https://reformedbooksonline.com/american/southern-presbyterians/dabney-robert/


Ned
#54281 - Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:37 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: Tom]  
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I'm getting more of the opinion that flags are unnecessary. Just get rid of them all.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
#54282 - Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:37 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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goldenoldie Online content
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Masschusetts, USA
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner

Whoa, whoa there GoldenOldie, don't you know that in American 'pc' culture, calling someone an "Oriental" is pejorative? LOL Since I'm not 'pc', I use "Oriental" when thinking of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, that part of Asia. You must have been reading from some of Dabney's Discussions, correct? I remember reading a sermon Dabney preached to the Confederate troops, a night before a big battle. It was a powerful and moving sermon, to be preached in such circumstances! I believe it was in one of the volumes of his Discussions. If you are not aware already, many of Dabney's writings are online: https://reformedbooksonline.com/american/southern-presbyterians/dabney-robert/


I know, Ned spin

It was hard to choose between Asian, Oriental, and Chinese (my ethnicity, but I'm not from the PRC or ROC)—political correctness and racial stereotyping have turned writing into a minefield. I just gave up and picked a word that naturally stood in contrast to Western.

Yes, it was the Discussions published by the Banner of Truth. Thank you for the link! Looks like the BoT edited it heavily, just as they edited Arthur Pink's Sovereignty of God. Suppressing information and free speech stifles discussion, which is the best way to prevent the escalation of conflict. When will we ever learn?


In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
#54284 - Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:03 AM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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Tom Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I also agree with Trump in principle. However, as you probably know Neo-Nazi groups are praising and thanking Trump and talking like he is their hero. Trump is not doing himself any favours with the liberal press.
I am hoping Trump will say very clearly what he thinks of those kind of groups.
Unfortunately many Christians who are actually conservative in their theology are buying into what the liberal media is saying.
Tom

#54285 - Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:49 PM Re: Charlottesville Virginia and White Supremacy [Re: Tom]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 60
PerpetualLearner Offline
Journeyman
PerpetualLearner  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 60
Tampa Bay, Florida
Originally Posted by Tom
I also agree with Trump in principle. However, as you probably know Neo-Nazi groups are praising and thanking Trump and talking like he is their hero. Trump is not doing himself any favours with the liberal press.
I am hoping Trump will say very clearly what he thinks of those kind of groups.
Unfortunately many Christians who are actually conservative in their theology are buying into what the liberal media is saying.
Tom


One reason I listen to Rush Limbaugh, I'd not have known this if he had not mentioned today: http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/16/w...ate-statue-is-a-pro-north-korea-marxist/

It's revealing that we haven't gotten that news from the MSM.


Ned
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