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KJO Propaganda? #54389
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:38 PM
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:38 PM
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I am trying to find out the validity of the following article.
http://www.thetextofthegospels.com/2016/08/whos-making-your-bible.html?m=1
Not sure how valid it is, it could be just KJO propaganda.

Tom

Last edited by Pilgrim; Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:53 AM. Reason: fixed link
Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54390
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:02 AM
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What exactly are you trying to validate? shrug

Are you questioning the truthfulness of the views held by those who are doing the work (textual criticism), e.g., Atheists? Or, are you questioning the actual changing of the base of the text(s) upon which translators use to produce new translations of the Bible? Or, are you questioning that some, e.g., James White are said to approve of the work being done by this group of people which doesn't seem to be consistent with their professed conservative Christian views? Or, are you troubled by all of these possibilities or perhaps something entirely different? scratch1

Whether or not this might be "just KJO propaganda" or not, IF the allegations in the article are factual, then the author's views concerning the "inspiration" of the KJV are irrelevant.

What is clear, is that the author is a semi-Pelagian and apparently believes that baptism by immersion in water is inextricably tied to the doctrine of justification, i.e., baptism effects the remission of sins and without baptism, there is no justification of a believer.


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Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54391
Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:26 AM
Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:26 AM
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There are a lot of things I could have enquiried about concerning this; you mentioned several of them. I decided because of that not to mention any of them. But you did mention James White and his name being mentioned did peak my concern.
Usually this is not a subject that I like to talk about; mainly because I think the issue of Formal Equivalence vs Dymamic Equivalence is more important. However, some of the things in that article were very serious. Yet, because of things like truthfulness etc, I am not sure how much time I should put into this.
Tom

Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54393
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:22 AM
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[Linked Image]... right, I get it.

FYI, the article had nothing to do with Formal vs. Dynamic Equivalence theories of translation. The issue wasn't even TR vs Majority Text or Nestle Arland text. The subject of the article was the changing of the base textual source of the Bible which is now far different than the TR or Westcott-Hort, etc A secondary issue was the religious views of those doing this textual criticism which seriously changes the manuscript evidence which has been accepted and used throughout the centuries. And, of course, as I mentioned above, the suggested approval of these men and what they are doing by confessed conservative Christians.

ranton As an aside, I object to and reject the perpetual "need" to create new English translations of the Bible. There are a half-dozen +/- excellent translations that exist which have been very sufficient to convey the inspired truth of God in writing through many years. Most every new attempt to improve upon those faithful translations falls short in various ways which most importantly obscures and/or contradicts the core doctrines of the faith. rantoff


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Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54394
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:12 PM
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:12 PM
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Pilgrim
I did not mean to imply that the article had anything to do with the Formal Equivalence vs the Dynamic Equivalence. The reason why I mention that was because I find that issue to be more important.
Admittedly, I only read the article once and in order for me to completely understand a message of that type, it takes at least two or three readings. In this case however, I thought I would put the article on the Highway to see if after that I should make the time to read it again.
Thankyou for pointing out that this is not a TR vs Westscott-Hort issue. My initial thoughts were that it probably was.
By the way, I agree with your rant.

Tom

Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54395
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:03 PM
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom
Pilgrim
I did not mean to imply that the article had anything to do with the Formal Equivalence vs the Dynamic Equivalence. The reason why I mention that was because I find that issue to be more important.

Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with this assessment of yours. IF the foundation is corrupt, then it won't make a wit if difference how you use it to build something. I'm sure you will immediately think of the words of Christ Jesus, eh? grin Thus, in the case of what the author of the article was so bothered with, if/since these people are changing portions of Scripture or even removing parts of what has traditionally been universally accepted as inspired, then the resulting translation will be corrupt and thus useless.

Quote
Revelation 22:18-19 (ASV) "I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book."


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Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54396
Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:00 PM
Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:00 PM
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Sorry, I am being unclear again. What I was referring to is the age old debate of the Alexandrian vs the Berzantine Texts. Many make a huge deal about that issue and I think it was you that once said something to the effect that this has been debated for centuries, but you choose to focus on the Formal Equivance vs the Dynamic Equivalence. Perhaps I have misunderstood you on that issue?
I know this particular matter is a little more that the Alexandrian Text vs the Berzantine Text. To tell you the truth, as I study this issue, I am finding it hard to understand some of the issues involved. Yet, that has never stopped me before, if It did I probably would still be Arminian in my soteriology today.
I do understand what you mean about removing part of the foundation and agree. Yet is it really true? Have people like James White unwittingly bought into a lie. Or perhaps, they are purposely doing so to support an agenda?
Sorry, my head is starting to spin.
I was recently told about a debate between James White and another Reformed Christian by the name of Robert Truelove, that although I have not watched it yet, sounds like it deals with this issue.
Tom

Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54406
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:01 AM
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:01 AM
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Seeing I enquired on ‘The Highway’ concerning this topic; I thought I would let you know that I have done more research on this topic. With that research I asked my pastor for help. He told me that he was going to enquire about this to his seminary advisor. The following response he gave me after he heard from his advisor.
Quote
So I contacted my advisor, (name omitted), about David Trobisch. Watch this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmDC-bVnO_o

He readily accepts Marcion's "gospel" and even seems to give it primacy, contends that Luke used Josephus as a source, says the Gospels don't agree on everything, but his main point is worst of all, that he calls into question the reliability of the true gospels as to the nature of Christ! Given that Trobisch is on the editorial board of new editions of the Greek New Testament (as he affirms in the video), it seems he is a very dangerous man in a very powerful position. We need to pray about this. May the Lord overrule!

(Name omitted) was very thankful to have this brought to his attention. Thank you for bringing it to mine. I told him is came from a man at church.

Thanks again,

Thank you, for your input Pilgrim. You sure helped me to clear some of the fog out of my mind.
My pastor also mentioned that we should not jump to any conclusions concerning James White and DA Carson. It MAY just mean they just do not know about this, because it is not well documented. But they need to know and Dr. (name omitted) is in a position to do something about it.
I sure hope he is right.
Tom

Last edited by Tom; Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:02 AM.
Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54432
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:00 PM
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:00 PM
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I just thought of a follow up question/s to this.

The fact that there is definately something to the link I gave.
What are the ramifications of it?
Also what if any translations have been effected by this?

Tom

Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54433
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:36 PM
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I would think that the ramifications are obvious!... likewise the kind of translations that would result.


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Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Pilgrim] #54434
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:43 PM
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:43 PM
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They might be obvious to you, but I would not have asked the questions if I knew.
As it is, it almost appears to me that the KJO people are correct.
Tom

Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54435
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:10 PM
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Come on Tom... if someone is messing around with the source material; adding, subtracting and/or modifying it, then de facto anyone who uses the altered material to do translation work will be directly effected. The end result will be a corrupt translation. This has nothing to do with the KJO advocates. This has to do with the very Word of God and a blatant denial of the doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration. Again, methinks that much alone would be more than obvious to everyone.


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Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Pilgrim] #54436
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:33 PM
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Forgive me Pilgrim, I have been very tired lately from work and my cognitive abilities are not what they should be. What you said is helpful; yet I am not sure what translations have been affected by this? In other words which translations use “Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece”?
I have read the article quite a few times now and have been trying to understand the issue better. Yet, based on what you said, I am still missing something?
Tom

Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54437
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:15 AM
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:15 AM
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I have no knowledge as to what translations in the past 20+ years, if that goes back far enough used the Nestle-Arland source. And to be honest, it isn't something I am concerned about. Most modern translations use the Dynamic Equivalence translation method to one degree or another or worse. Thus, I reject all of them that do. I'll stick with my KJV and ASV and not worry what the latest and greatest, new improved version of the Bible is currently on sale at Amazon. grin I don't have to know what Bible was translated based upon the corrupted Nestle-Arland text. igiveup Secondly, an equal or worse problem for moderns is their church. Typically, the preaching is heretical, both doctrinally and practically. And most people who attend church believe whatever their "pastor" says and infrequently, if that, read a Bible. So, even if they owned a KJV or ASV or perhaps a NKJV or NASB, it wouldn't make any difference in most cases.

So, what is YOUR concern over this expected corruption of the Nestle-Arland Novum Testamentum Graece?


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Re: KJO Propaganda? [Re: Tom] #54438
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:17 PM
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:17 PM
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Like you I only read Formal Equivalent Bibles.
I dislike Dynamic Equivalent versions.
At Church I use an ESV, because that is the version my pastor preaches from. Yet, usually I study from the KJV, or when reading with my wife the NKJV.
I would not go to a Church where the teaching is heretical. My pastor is a good sound expositor of the Word of God. He is not really polished in his presentation and therefore many don't last too long in our body. Yet, if one is hungry for the Word of God, they will definately hear it.
As to your question, I guess my concern lays in if the foundation of all versions that use the Nestle-..., then does it not also mean that those who use them automatically have a corrupt foundation?
This is the claim of many, saying that guys like James White are leading people astray and are not to be trusted.
Tom

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