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#5548 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:15 AM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 51
Saved_n_kept Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 51
Argyll, Scotland.
Dear Kyle,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]There is nothing in me and nothing that I have done or could ever do that warrents my salvation, and yet God has none the less seen fit to save me. Amazing grace, indeed!</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><font class="big">AMEN!!!</font mu=big> And you know Kyle, the longer I journey on this life the more I realise that ALL THAT I AM is due to His grace alone, and EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE is on loan from Him to be used for His glory! To love Him more than anyone else, and give Him first place in our lives, often means painful choices, like the one you are currently faced with. May you know His blessing and guidance, and may your life so reflect His wonderful love that, particularly in this situation, your dear friends might be led to examine their beliefs. Remembering you in prayer.<br>Yours in Him,<br>Brian. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img] "....for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed." 1Samuel 2:30.

#5549 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:21 AM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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4Ever_Learning Offline
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Just wanted to say hi, and to let you know that we (my wife and I) will be praying for you. I can understand what your going through as I to came ought of an AoG church my self.<br>It was easy for me to leave though mainly because their was very little love there and the pastor was a big time hypocrite and liar. I know it must be hard leaving friends and the people that have helped you on your Christian journey. Maybe you can still keep in touch with them with out getting too involved again with their wrong theology, and who knows if God may not use you to help others see truth as you were led to.<br><br>God<br>bless


&#931;&#949;&#963;&#965;&#962; &#953;&#962; &#923;&#959;&#961;&#948;
#5550 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 12:22 PM Reformed University Fellowship [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 360
Theo Offline
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Theo  Offline
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Kyle,

It just occurred to me that you might be interested in Reformed University Fellowship, if one is available on your campus. Their website is at

Reformed University Fellowship

and they can be quite helpful. The site has a list of campuses where they are located.

May God bless,

Theo

#5551 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:38 PM Re: Reformed University Fellowship [Re: Theo]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
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Virginia
Theo,<br><br>Yes, there is an R.U.F. at my school, and I began involvement with it last year (though not as much involvement as I would have liked). I plan to continue it this year. The pastor is actually an elder from the local PCA.<br><br>--Kyle


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5552 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:36 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  

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Kyle,<br>I realized the biblical assertation of God's sovereignty in salvation about a year after my conversion to Christ. I had made quite a few friends that were appalled and hostile to the idea of humanity being unable to be self-regenerating or choose Christ. A lot of my sister friends thought that God was a "will rapist" if that were true. I've been a "Calvinist" for three years now of my walk. I still have a close and Christ abiding friendship with these freewillies. We all went deep into the Word of God though in this debate and it is still hard for us to discuss. But Col 3 talks about love for the brethern and we can't treat the arminian or Pentecostal brethren (who are truly believers in the saving grace of Christ) as inferior or red headed step siblings (pardon the slang). It has always been a fault of mine to write off people who can't get the basic facts down as if I were able to somehow to understand the sovereignty of God on my own with out the Holy Spirit unveiling it to me. The fact is that we are all born Arminians until God wakes us up to the fact that He is the regenerator and savior of our souls. But as far as the AOG church is concerned if you can stand firm and this particular church doesn't hold to any gross doctrines of salvation (tongues, second baptism, etc) but is a church that trusts in the true redemptive atonement of Christ then see how this doctrine settles upon them.<br>Peace,<br>Aaron

#5553 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:53 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
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Posts: 983
Florida
Hi Kyle,<br><br>There are many of us who have made the awkward and wonderful exodus out of Charismatic/Pentecostal superstition and confusion. Quite a few are right here on this message board actually.<br><br>If you think it might be helpful, there is an internet e-mail loop for "recovering ex-Charismatics" that offers ongoing advice and support via e-mail from a large group of folks who have been introduced to the Reformed doctrines of sovereign grace that have made such a huge difference in our lives!<br><br>Visit ExCharisma's home page at http://discernment.org and follow the link to the ExCharisma e-mail loop. <br><br>This message board is the very best resource I know of for foundational articles and help for the transition to biblical faith. We have a few useful things at ExCharisma too, especially the testimonies with which you might deeply identify. <br><br>In Christ,<br>Robin<br>

#5554 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:24 PM Re: New / Advice  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Aaron,<br><br>>>> [color:red]But Col 3 talks about love for the brethern and we can't treat the arminian or Pentecostal brethren (who are truly believers in the saving grace of Christ) as inferior or red headed step siblings (pardon the slang).</font color=red><br><br>I hope I'm not giving that impression. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/frown.gif" alt="frown" title="frown[/img] I don't view them as inferior or "red-headed step siblings." Many of them are far more mature in the faith than am I, and they have certainly helped me along in my walk with the Lord. But our differences in theological understanding are beginning to compel me to the separation, as much as I hate it.<br><br>>>> [color:red]But as far as the AOG church is concerned if you can stand firm and this particular church doesn't hold to any gross doctrines of salvation (tongues, second baptism, etc) but is a church that trusts in the true redemptive atonement of Christ then see how this doctrine settles upon them.</font color=red><br><br>As regards salvation, the official teaching is by grace, through faith. While receiving the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and glossolalia are parts of A/G's peculiar pneumatology, A/G as a whole has never considered these essential to salvation. I plan to discuss my convictions with the pastor to see what he thinks, and as well with the pastor of a local Reformed church. But so far the consensus here has been that, with Reformed options available to me, I ought to seek them out for fellowship.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5555 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:26 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: Robin]  
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CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
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Virginia
Thank you very much for the recommendation, Robin! I will look into it. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/read.gif" alt="read" title="read[/img]


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5556 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:19 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

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Posts: 13,293
NH, USA
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]As regards salvation, the official teaching is by grace, through faith.</font><hr></blockquote><p>At the risk of having you conclude that I deem you as being naive (which you just might be?, but no matter), this "official teaching" can be and often is deceptive. The veneer of "saved by grace" is just that... and what lies beneath that exterior confession is what really counts. I can assure you, with few exceptions, and I do know a couple of AOG pastors who would most definitely be included in the exception here, that the OFFICIAL doctrine of soteriology of the AOG denomination is "synergism"; i.e., semi-Pelagianism. Salvation was made as a proviso for all and is obtainable by all when supplemented by a person's "free-will decision". After one has become familiar with the theological frameworks which makeup the various denominations, it isn't difficult to see through the veneer to the core doctrines which are hidden from view.<br><br>As an interesting "experiment" apply my presentation, which you can see here: Do You Really Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone? to some, any, all of the people who attend the AOG church, including the pastor(s), and you will quickly see what they REALLY believe, at least with their lips. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#5557 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:29 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Sep 2003
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CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
>>> [color:red] this "official teaching" can be and often is deceptive. The veneer of "saved by grace" is just that... and what lies beneath that exterior confession is what really counts.</font color=red><br><br>This is precisely why I termed it the "official" teaching. I am aware that, unfortunately, behind it lies a faulty theological understanding. My real point, however, was that A/Gers do not hold to "gross" (i.e., unorthodox) doctrines of salvation. That is, of course, unless we define orthodoxy around Reformed teaching.<br><br>More or less, A/Gers in general accept the teacing "by grace, through faith," without thoroughly thinking through what, exactly, it means. (And that no doubt includes many pastors.) And when they do think about it, they get caught up with the "necessity" of free will, as that is their "experience"---and, as anyone can observe, experience is of cardinal importance in Pentecostalism. Fortunately, the A/G tries to subordinate experience to Scripture---which makes it less susceptible to the extreme errors of some other Pentecostal sects, though it fails in (too) many aspects---this included.<br><br>In my own experience, I was taught in the A/G a combination of "God is in ultimate control over all things" and "we are sinners unworthy of the grace we have received," and while these were not logically extended in conformity to the Bible's revelations, yet they were not usually expounded in the full-fledged Arminianism that is at the core of the A/G's theological understanding. It was the second teaching, actually, by which God led me into a Reformed perspective.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5558 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:39 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

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Posts: 13,293
NH, USA
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]My real point, however, was that A/Gers do not hold to "gross" (i.e., unorthodox) doctrines of salvation. That is, of course, unless we define orthodoxy around Reformed teaching.</font><hr></blockquote><p>But that's exactly how I define "orthodoxy"! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] If "Calvinism" in its fullness isn't a standard of orthodoxy, i.e., it is a system of biblical truth (as it is subordinate to the Scriptures ultimate authority), then what IS the standard by which all teachings are to be judged?<br><br>Have you read this excellent article by Henry Meeter: The Fundamental Principle of Calvinism ?<br><br>In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#5559 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:51 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: Pilgrim]  
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CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
>>> [color:red]If "Calvinism" in its fullness isn't a standard of orthodoxy, i.e., it is a system of biblical truth (as it is subordinate to the Scriptures ultimate authority), then what IS the standard by which all teachings are to be judged?</font color=red><br><br>I take the standard of orthodoxy as set forth by the historic creeds; i.e., that of the Apostles, of Nicaea, and of Athanasius. While Arminiamism is inconsistent in itself as a system of theology, yet do not most Arminians uphold the essential beliefs set forth in the creeds? Or is this perhaps too lenient a standard for defining the visible body of Christ?<br><br>>>> [color:red]Have you read this excellent article by Henry Meeter: The Fundamental Principle of Calvinism ?</font color=red><br><br>Yes, I have, and I found it very informative. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5560 - Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:15 PM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
NH, USA
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]yet do not most Arminians uphold the essential beliefs set forth in the creeds? Or is this perhaps too lenient a standard for defining the visible body of Christ?

I am sure that my view will be seen as far too lax to some and way too narrow for perhaps even more. [Linked Image] Let me try to explain my stand in very brief terms. Although I certainly recognize the necessity of embracing the Ecumenical Creeds, including the Apostle's Creed as a standard of Orthodoxy, I feel these do not necessarily represent the "essentials" of biblical Christianity. For example, the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church both give full assent to these Creeds. Yet, they are miles apart in matters of soteriology. The devil himself could give assent to that which is contained in the Ecumenical Creeds, but surely that would not make him a Christian, eh?

So, what sets true biblical Christianity apart from all other religions, sects, cults, etc., is Calvinism's soteriology; how is a man made right with God. And the Reformation answered with: [color:blue]Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria. Since I believe that the Protestant Reformation brought the church back to Pauline (biblical) theology, specifically to the doctrine of soteriology as expressed in Sola Fide, which in my mind is the very expression of the fundamentals of the faith: "God saves sinners!" . . . by grace, through faith, in Christ ALONE, anything contrary to that teaching is not "orthodox". Why? Because anything other, at the end of the day, can be reduced to a form of "synergism", i.e., God and man together brings about salvation, e.g., "grace + works = salvation" (semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism/Sects/Cults).

To me, a counterfeit no matter how closely it resembles that which it is a forgery of, is still non-negotiable; it is worthless as tender. It may be admired for it's resemblance, detail, etc.. but it still has no intrinsic value in the market place. A religion or theology may have all the right appearing words and practices. But, if it not the genuine article ...... that which has been taught by God through His inspired writers and rightly understood by the enlightenment of the indwelling Holy Spirit, it is nothing more than a counterfeit which may look good, but it has no inherent worth and will be burned up.

In His Grace,



[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#5561 - Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:20 AM Re: New / Advice [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Sep 2003
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CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
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Virginia
Pilgrim,<br><br>Well, I understand your position, and agree in several respects. Perhaps the Creeds are enough to define only those religions historically derived from Biblical Christianity? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/shrug.gif" alt="shrug" title="shrug[/img] That doesn't sound quite like I want it to mean. It's funny, though, thinking of some of the forums I've participated in, that my use of the beliefs set forward in the Creeds as the defining beliefs of Christianity has almost always been considered far too narrow, and never too broad! After all, "Aren't you a Christian as long as you believe in Jesus as God?" [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bif.gif" alt="bif" title="bif[/img]


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5562 - Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:45 AM Re: New / Advice [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

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USA
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]After all, "Aren't you a Christian as long as you believe in Jesus as God?" </font><hr></blockquote><p> Which Jesus, the created one of the JWs? What does it mean to believe--mental assent? What is the definition of a Christian--just belief or belief that changes one's actions as well. No you are not a Christ as long as you SAY you believe in Jesus Christ-it must be much deeper than that.<br><br>I do agree that the Apostle's Creed is a good measure of whether to accept one as a Christian or not. It does have the "basics" outlined. But, a person may NOT just say I believe in the AC and that settles it, but would need to interact with it and explain what it means. Many may say Lord, Lord, or creed, creed, but they really have no special revelation of either!


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