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#5901 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:53 PM Is Jesus the Only Way?  
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A good article; don't be put off by its title: "There May be More Than One Way to God".


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5902 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:07 PM Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Actually, there are TWO ways of receiving forgiveness of one's sins-- Grace and Works [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/evilgrin.gif" alt="evilgrin" title="evilgrin[/img]


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#5903 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:12 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: J_Edwards]  
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Well, if you work perfectly, you'll never sin, and won't need grace---although you're liable to be crucified . . .


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5904 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:14 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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In reply to:
Well, if you work perfectly, you'll never sin, and won't need grace---although you're liable to be crucified . . .

Actually, I did not say OUR works, but I was referring to HIS works. We have a bad record in sin and we are saved by Christ's perfect record as well...........thus Christ saved us not only by His grace, but His perfect works as well. Something to think about. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]



Reformed and Always Reforming,
#5905 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:20 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: J_Edwards]  
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True indeed!


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5906 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:29 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Sometimes we fail to realize that Christ had a PERFECT RECORD here on earth. We know He did not sin, but we fail to realize what that means. The writer of Hebrews says HE was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). Was Christ tempted with homosexuality, with lying, with stealing? Think about what this verse entails. Of course, it raises an interesting question. Since, Christ was a man, how could He be tempted with the temptations of a woman? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/confused.gif" alt="confused" title="confused[/img] Of course, there is an answer.<br><br>We may have to move this post as it probably needs its own little heading..........if we get enough responses and interest.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#5907 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:51 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: J_Edwards]  
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Hmm. It's an interesting thought. So Christ was tempted with murder? I suppose that would be the logical conclusion. But how do we mean "tempted"? Now there's a question: What is a temptation? So often in everyday speech, we refer to something we desire to do but refrain from doing as "temptation"; do we say Christ desired to commit sin?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5908 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:10 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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In reply to:
do we say Christ desired to commit sin?

nope To "desire" to commit sin is to sin:

James 1:13-15 (KJV) "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
To be "enticed" is to give attention to the temptation, i.e., to "consider" it as a matter to be desired. Lot's wife sinned in that she "looked back"; there was a "desire" in her heart for Sodom; to return to the place which she had been delivered.
Hebrews 4:15 (KJV) "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin."
I understand this text to mean that there is no temptation which Christ was not exposed to so that there is nothing which we will be confronted with, by either our own sinful hearts from within or from anything without, that He too did not have to deal with, thus He is a perfect Saviour Who endured ALL that His people will go through in this life.

In His Grace,


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#5909 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:09 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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CovenantInBlood,

The Gospels show Jesus experiencing human limitations (hunger, Matt. 4:2; fatique, John 4:6; ignorance of fact, Luke 8:45-47; and sorrow John 11:35, 38). Hebrews stresses that if Christ had not shared all these facets of human experience - weakness, temptation, pain - He would not be qualified to help us as we face such trials (Heb. 2:17, 18; 4:15, 16; 5:2, 7-9). As it is, His full human experience guarantees that in every moment of our relationship with God we may go to Him, confident that He has been there before us, and is the helper we need.

Jesus could not sin but He was able to be tempted. Satan tempted Him to disobey the Father through self-gratification, self-display, and self-aggrandizement (Matt. 4:1-11), and the temptation to retreat from the cross was constant (Luke 22:28; cf. Matt. 16:23; and Jesus prayer in Gethsemane). Being human, Jesus could not conquer temptation without a struggle, but being divine it was His nature to do the Father's will (John 5:19, 30), and therefore to resist and fight temptation until He had overcome it. Since His human nature was conformed to His divine nature, it was impossible that He should fail in the course of His resistance. It was inevitable that He would endure temtations to the end, feeling the entire force, and emerge victorious for His people. From Gethsemane we know how acute and agonizing His struggles were. The happy result for us is that because "He himself had suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted" (Heb. 2:18).

(Notes from my study Bible about the humanity of Jesus)

Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#5910 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:24 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: Pilgrim]  
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In reply to:
To be "enticed" is to give attention to the temptation, i.e., to "consider" it as a matter to be desired. Lot's wife sinned in that she "looked back"; there was a "desire" in her heart for Sodom; to return to the place which she had been delivered.



Perhaps the dilemma in the modern English is that "temptation" and "enticement" are so often conflated? For instance, one on a diet might say of a fattening dessert, "It is tempting, but I must not eat it," and will be understood to mean that he desires to eat the dessert, but is refraining. We certainly don't say this of Jesus being tempted, so what do we mean? Do we mean by "temptation" simply that a sinful option was laid before Christ? It seems that this is the only choice.



Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5911 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:39 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: Wes]  
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In reply to:
Being human, Jesus could not conquer temptation without a struggle



If we say that it is sin to desire to sin, and we say that Christ could not sin, what was the struggle He faced in being tempted? How does one resist temptation if he does not desire the thing with which he is being tempted? I think this may be difficult for me to conceive because of the fallen nature in me; I don't know that I can honestly say that I have been conscious of being tempted without having a desire---at least in my flesh---to give in.
dizzy



Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5912 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:48 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: Wes]  
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Does Luke 8:45-47 necessarily mean that Jesus was ignorant of who the woman was? Perhaps He said "Who touched me" so that attention would be given to the woman? Jesus was not ignorant of the Syrophoenician woman's need in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, but He tested her faith anyway.

On another topic, why do you think Jesus decided to heal the blind man in Mark 8 halfway before healing him fully? Do you think it was to portray how we now see through a glass darkly but in heaven we will know as we are known? I find it interesting that this account is placed right after Jesus accuses people of not seeing and right before Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ (although Peter still did not understand it fully).


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#5913 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:49 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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In reply to:
Do we mean by "temptation" simply that a sinful option was laid before Christ? It seems that this is the only choice.

I think this is correct; i.e., that myriad choices were brought to Christ and/or He encountered such choices throughout His life on earth. In each and every instance, not unlike ourselves, He had to make a conscious decision to obey His Father or give in to something which was a transgression of the law. Now, at the risk of inciting a riot, laugh , I do believe it had to have been possible for Christ to sin, else the temptations would have been simply "tokens" and not real. If Christ was not "sorely" tempted, i.e., He did not experience the "pressure" of the choice(s) set before Him, then He could not be said to be a true representative of His people. His incarnation was to be a substitute for human beings. A "automaton", basically a living machine would not qualify. Am I saying that would have sinned? NEVER!! Because of His love for the Father and by a conscious decision to reject each and every temptation, He would not sin. The Lord Christ came as the "Second Adam" and thus was given the task to accomplish that which the first Adam failed to do. If He was not "in all ways like us", then the "without sin" would be meaningless, IMHO. Thus, I must respectfully disagree with the author of the footnote which Wes quoted from his study Bible.

In His Grace,



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#5914 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:57 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: Pilgrim]  
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In reply to:
If Christ was not "sorely" tempted, i.e., He did not experience the "pressure" of the choice(s) set before Him, then He could not be said to be a true representative of His people.



Here my question comes again---and as I said in response to Wes' post, perhaps it's just difficult for me to conceive because of my sinful nature---, but, if He had no desire (no inclination?) to give in to temptation, what was the nature of the "pressure" which Christ experienced in being tempted?



Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#5915 - Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:04 PM Re: Grace and Works [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Would it be similar to someone asking a Christian to renounce Christ while he is on a "spiritual mountaintop?" Or asking a Christian to have premaritial sex right after she gets back from a True Love Waits conference?

Note I say similar because obviously Christ was fully God.

What do you make of Charles Hodge saying Christ could have sinned?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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