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#6216 - Tuesday, October 7, 2003 3:29 AM Re: The Sabbath [Re: Pilgrim]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not easily offended Pilgrim but pretty ugly .

We all however have a pride problem - easily offended or not . This began with Adam at the Fall.

howard

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#6217 - Friday, October 10, 2003 11:40 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: Tom]
li0scc0 Offline
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Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
Tom,<br>Good day to you!<br>Are you Jewish? If you are not the Sabbath does not apply to you, since it was given to Israel.<br>Steve

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#6218 - Friday, October 10, 2003 12:40 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13356
Loc: NH, USA
Steve,

Let's for fun apply your hermeneutic consistently and thus ask: Are you Jewish? If not, then the following prohibitions or injunctions do not apply to you:
    [*]You shall have no other gods before Jehovah.[*]You shall not make any idols, nor any likeness whatsoever or any of the three persons of the Godhead. Nor, you shall not bow down or worship them.[*]You shall not use the name of God in a vain or empty manner.[*]Children must honor their parents.[*]You shall not steal.[*]You shall not commit adultery.[*]You shall not lie.[*]You shall not covet anything.[/LIST]Therefore, Gentile Christians are free to live a life of total rebellion and sinfulness.

    In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#6219 - Friday, October 10, 2003 1:00 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: Pilgrim]
li0scc0 Offline
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Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
Good afternoon!

Actually, that is not the case at all. We are under the Law of Christ, which aptly reiterates the majority of these commands.

If we are under the 10 Commandments, then we are also under the OTHER 603 Mosaic Laws. You can't pick and choose.

Fruchtenbaum aptly states, "It must be understood that the Mosaic Law is viewed in the Scriptures as a unit. The word, Torah or “Law,” is always singular when applied to the Law of Moses, although it contains 613 commandments. The same is true of the Greek word, Nomos, in the New Testament. The division of the Law of Moses into ceremonial, legal, and moral parts is convenient for the study of different types of commandments contained within it, but it is never divided this way by the Scriptures themselves. Neither is there any scriptural basis for separating the Ten Commandments from the whole 613 and making only the Ten perpetual. All 613 commandments are a single unit comprising the Law of Moses.
It is this principle of the unity of the Law of Moses that lies behind the idea of keeping the whole law in James 2:10. The Apostle’s point here is clearly that a person needs only to break one of the 613 commandments to be guilty of breaking all of the Law of Moses. And this can only be true if the Mosaic Law is a unit. If it were not, the guilt would lie only in the particular commandment violated and not in the whole Law. In other words, if one breaks a legal commandment, he is guilty of breaking the ceremonial and moral ones as well. The same is true of breaking a moral or ceremonial commandment. To bring the point closer to home, a person under the Law of Moses who eats ham is guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments, although none of the Ten says anything about ham.
In order to clearly understand the Law of Moses and its relationship to the believer (Jew or Gentile), it is necessary to view it as do the Scriptures: as a unit, one that cannot be divided into parts that are nullified and parts that are kept. Nor can certain commandments be separated in such a way as to give them a different status from other commandments."


If you want to be under the Law, go ahead...but I am hoping you have not mixed your fabrics today! Oh wait, I have! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek[/img] Leviticus 19:19

Have a great weekend,
Steve




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#6220 - Friday, October 10, 2003 2:40 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13356
Loc: NH, USA
Steve,

Again... I openly challenge your hermeneutic, again! I don't recall these other "603" laws being carved in stone by the finger of God, being broken and then rewritten and stored in the Arc of the Covenant? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img] Can you kindly point that passage of Scripture out to me please? Another item which I would like you to instruct me on is where are these other 603 laws recorded before they were given to Moses? The "Ten Commandments" were not new when spoken by God and written in stone at the time of Moses. They were millennia old, e.g., the commandment prohibiting murder is first read in regard to Cain's killing of Abel, iterated again at the time of Noah, etc.. What is known as the "Ten Commandments" was a universal law recognized by all people because they are MORAL in nature, where the other "603 laws" make up the Theocratic civil and ceremonial laws; some being types and shadows but all fulfilled by Christ.

You have a nice weekend too! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#6221 - Friday, October 10, 2003 2:48 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3911
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
li0scc0

Spoken like an antinominian.
Do you not know that the 10 commandments are part of the very character of our God?

1John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not of him."

Please don't try to tell me that the 10 commandments were not what these verses were talking about.

As believers we are not saved by obeying the commandments, but the obedience of them should become part of our character as Christians. Think about that in light of 1John 2:3-4.

Tom

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#6222 - Friday, October 10, 2003 3:44 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
MarieP Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: Friday, March 28, 2003
Posts: 2311
Loc: Kentucky
_________________________
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin

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#6223 - Friday, October 10, 2003 7:29 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Registered: Saturday, September 13, 2003
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]You can't pick and choose.



Indeed! As our Lord said,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17--19.)


_________________________
Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.

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#6224 - Saturday, October 11, 2003 12:33 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Steve, Fruchtenbaum is a Judaising Arminian who is promoted by Jacob Prasch of "Moriel" ministries in Leeds England.

One word of advice - Flee.

howard

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#6225 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003 6:57 AM Re: Staying on Topic
li0scc0 Offline
Addict

Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
Interesting you say he is Arminian, as he is known as a Calvinist, and, having read his works, he certainly is a Calvinist.<br>Next time, read the author before going on hearsay!<br>

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#6226 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003 6:58 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: CovenantInBlood]
li0scc0 Offline
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Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
I am so glad you brought that up!<br>And you are correct, he did fulfill the law and the prophets! For if he did not, then we would still be required not to mix fabrics, we could not eat pork, etc.

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#6227 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003 7:01 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: Tom]
li0scc0 Offline
Addict

Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
Are you then keeping the Sabbath command, Tom? Your day of rest is Friday sundown through Saturday sundown?<br>Do you eat pork or shellfish, Tom? Do you also have long hair?<br>Are you advocating executing adulterers?<br>No, of course not...because, like all other covenant persons, you have arbitrarily picked and chose. <br>The Mosaic Law is over and done with, replaced by the Law of Christ.

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#6228 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003 7:03 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: Pilgrim]
li0scc0 Offline
Addict

Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
For my hermeneutic, read Robert Thomas' book on hermeneutics. <br>Thanks!

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#6229 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003 8:50 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Registered: Saturday, September 13, 2003
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia
Yes, the ceremonial laws need no longer be adhered to, since Christ is their fulfillment. But the moral laws still apply to the Christian life. Now, you may argue that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law and that the Christian thus has no duty to keep a Sabbath day, but to say that the Mosaic Law in toto has been done away with, i.e., abolished, is to call Christ a liar. Even the ceremonial laws were not "done away with," but are perpetually fulfilled in Christ.


Edited by CovenantInBlood (Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:02 AM)
_________________________
Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.

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#6230 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:01 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13356
Loc: NH, USA
li0scc0,

Sorry, but I'm far more interested in YOU justifying whatever hermeneutical methodology YOU are using to obfuscate the integrity of the Moral Law of God, which was simply iterated at Sinai, having been in existence from creation and shall ever be binding upon all men until Christ returns. The "law of Christ" which you are wanting to use as an apologetic to deny the Sabbath Day in its fullness, having been changed to the "First Day of the week", to reflect the fulfillment of all that preceded it in types and shadows, is nothing other than this same Moral Law which all men everywhere from Adam to the last man is responsible to keep. As to the Sabbath Day itself, Christ made it perfectly clear that it was perpetual as He announced that He was "Lord of the Sabbath."

There will be a number of articles forthcoming, D.v. which will further defend both the perpetuity of the Sabbath and its change to the "First Day of the week". [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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