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#6246 - Thursday, October 16, 2003 10:37 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3921
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
li0scc0

You will have to be more specific than that.
MacArthur is a big promoter of the doctrines of grace, he is also a fan of CH Spurgeon, who trumpeted the doctrines of grace loudly.

Tom

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#6247 - Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:58 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: Tom]
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, December 9, 2001
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Loc: USA
MacArthur, and I own the majority of his books and all his commentaries, is a Reformed Calvinist. I know a few people that use to attend his seminary as well and they come out 'reformed' in the baptist and dispensational (Masters own brand of it) sense of the term. Occasionally some of MacArthur's writing and sermons appear to be only 4 point and at other times he appears 5 point. If you speak to him personally he will tell you 5 point, plus--for there is much more to the Reformed faith then just 5 points. <br><br>P.S. I believe someone on this board attends his church and they will be able to add more.
_________________________
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#6248 - Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:58 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: J_Edwards]
li0scc0 Offline
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Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
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Joe,
Thank you for the clarification. I was not clear and I should have stated that Macarthur certainly claims to be 5 point.

It was remiss of me to bring MacArthur up, because I do not have specific references. I was going simply on an "inkling", and, even if substantiated, I should have waited until I had more info.

Whether 5 point, 4 point, or 5 point +, I certainly like MacArthur.

Steve

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#6249 - Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:43 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, December 9, 2001
Posts: 4843
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You did well to use caution. Everything he writes is not 100% ---such as the obvious I already stated, and a few other items--books he had to re-edit. Here is a link to some of his on-line works--pretty substantial: MacArthur (some of these are links to books you must buy, other are links you may read on line).
_________________________
Reformed and Always Reforming,

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#6250 - Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:11 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Registered: Saturday, September 13, 2003
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]The word "most" implies >50%. The major dispensational seminaries are 4 pointers .



Are we talking about dispensationalists or dispensational seminaries?

In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Having read about the Canons of Dordt, I would define an Arminian as one who follows the teachings of Arminius. A four point Calvinist would NOT be an Arminian. If you are going to limit calling a Calvinist as to one who holds all five points, then I can limit the definition of an Arminian. :)



Giving up any of the five points destroys the coherence of the system. As I showed already, one who rejects limited atonement must hold either to universalism or to (Arminian) free-will. If to the former, he maintains consistency but rejects the historic and biblical faith. If to the latter, he must by logical constraint deny total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace.

_________________________
Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.

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#6251 - Friday, October 17, 2003 5:56 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: CovenantInBlood]
rcwilly2002 Offline
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Registered: Wednesday, September 10, 2003
Posts: 67
Loc: Monroe (area), LA
Let me add this about 4 point cal's.

Way back in Seminary I had a friend who claimed 4pts. However, through discussing the issue he just re-defined the terms. All said and done, he did not even agree with Total Depravity (though he claimed he did). And since then, when I run accross those who claim's 3 or 4 points, I often find the same result.

Being a Baptist in the deep south, I am sorry to guess that 3/4 of the other ministers that I have the occation to talk even about Perserverence do not even hold this doctrine as stated in the 1689 confession.

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#6252 - Wednesday, October 22, 2003 11:17 AM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: CovenantInBlood]
li0scc0 Offline
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Registered: Thursday, December 19, 2002
Posts: 641
Loc: Nebraska
Are we talking about dispensationalists or dispensational seminaries?<br><br>Certainly we are talking about Dispensational scholars! Whenever people on this board talk about Covenantalists, they talk about Covenantal scholars. To do otherwise would simply be ridiculous, as we would be going off of hearsay.<br>For example....when I was in a conservative Presbyterian (OPC) church, very few people actually held to 5 points if you pressed them. Many held to one or two points at best. And every PCA church I have worked with is extremely Arminian! BUT, does that mean that most Reformed folks are not really Reformed? Of course not, because when, at this site, we talk about Reformed people, we are really talking about the scholars and the seminaries, aren't we?! <br><br>I bring this up, because I presume that would be your argument, that most Dispensationalists you know are Arminian. Even many of the churches are Arminian. But the scholars and seminaries, in general, aren't....unless we redefine Arminianism as anything but 5 point Calvinism.<br><br>Steve

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#6253 - Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:10 PM Re: Staying on Topic [Re: li0scc0]
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Registered: Saturday, September 13, 2003
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Whenever people on this board talk about Covenantalists, they talk about Covenantal scholars.



I haven't seen enough talk of Covenantalists to verify that claim. But I can say that when someone is referred to as a "Calvinist," it doesn't matter whether they are scholars: the term indicates that they adhere to the Five Points. I call myself a Calvinist though I am neither scholar nor seminarian.

In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Of course not, because when, at this site, we talk about Reformed people, we are really talking about the scholars and the seminaries, aren't we?!



No. I daresay most of the people who post here are Reformed, and surely not all of them are scholars or seminarians. When we speak of Reformed scholars, writers, theologians, etc., we speak of scholars, writers, and theologians as groups within the Reformed tradition, not definitive of the Reformed tradition. That there are a lot of unreformed individuals attending ostensibly Reformed churches has no bearing. In the same way, when I refer to dispensationalists, I am referring to people who hold to a particular ecclesiology, i.e., that the nation of Israel and the Christian Church are discontinuous entities for whom God has separate plans in salvific history. Most people and churches who hold to this notion, though not all, have basically an Arminian theology.

In reply to:
[color:"blue"]I bring this up, because I presume that would be your argument, that most Dispensationalists you know are Arminian.



Most I know and most within American evangelicalism are, in fact, Arminian.

In reply to:
[color:"blue"]But the scholars and seminaries, in general, aren't....unless we redefine Arminianism as anything but 5 point Calvinism.



I gave a logical explanation before as to why anything but five-point Calvinism essentially ends up either universalist or Arminian. You have yet to address that.

_________________________
Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.

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