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#891 - Friday, April 4, 2003 9:49 AM Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
carlos Offline
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Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
JoshT,

I'm sure Fred will give a response. But one thing that I saw and disareed with is your comments regarding Calvin on Romans 11.
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Concerning Romans 11, it is clearly speaking of salvation for individuals. The example of the root and branches is used to illustrate Israel's fall and the Gentiles obtaining mercy through their fall. Even John Calvin could not escape the conclusion that this was a reference to individual salvation. He simply concluded that it was something that God said to push believers to obedience, but would never really do.



First, Pilgrim has already given u an expostion/exegesis of that chapter in another thread.
Romans 11

Secondly, Let's let Calvin speak in full because your make his commenatary too simplistic and a bit misleading.

"Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off, etc. We now understand in what sense Paul threatens them with excision, whom he has already allowed to have been grafted into the hope of life through God's election. For, first, though this cannot happen to the elect, they have yet need of such warning, in order to subdue the pride of the flesh; which being really opposed to their salvation, ought justly to be terrified with the dread of perdition. As far then as Christians are illuminated by faith, they hear, for their assurance, that the calling of God is without repentance; but as far as they carry about them the flesh, which wantonly resists the grace of God, they are taught humility by this warning, "Take heed lest thou be cut off." Secondly, we must bear in mind the solution which I have before mentioned, -- that Paul speaks not here of the special election of individuals, but sets the Gentiles and Jews in opposition the one to the other; and that therefore the elect are not so much addressed in these words, as those who falsely gloried that they had obtained the place of the Jews: nay, he speaks to the Gentiles generally, and addresses the whole body in common, among whom there were many who were faithful, and those who were members of Christ in name only.

But if it be asked respecting individuals, "How any one could be cut off from the grafting, and how, after excision, he could be grafted again," -- bear in mind, that there are three modes of insition, and two modes of excision. For instance, the children of the faithful are ingrafted, to whom the promise belongs according to the covenant made with the fathers; ingrafted are also they who indeed receive the seed of the gospel, but it strikes no root, or it is choked before it brings any fruit; and thirdly, the elect are ingrafted, who are illuminated unto eternal life according to the immutable purpose of God. The first are cut off, when they refuse the promise given to their fathers, or do not receive it on account of their ingratitude; the second are cut off, when the seed is withered and destroyed; and as the danger of this impends over all, with regard to their own nature, it must be allowed that this warning which Paul gives belongs in a certain way to the faithful, lest they indulge themselves in the sloth of the flesh. But with regard to the present passage, it is enough for us to know, that the vengeance which God had executed on the Jews, is pronounced on the Gentiles, in case they become like them" (Calvin).


_________________________
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

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#892 - Friday, April 11, 2003 5:25 AM Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
fredman Offline
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Registered: Tuesday, July 30, 2002
Posts: 593
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
_________________________
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns

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#45784 - Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:26 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Pilgrim]
Ricky Offline
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Registered: Sunday, December 20, 2009
Posts: 2
Loc: Puerto Rico
Interestingly enough, there are even people who do not agree with Calvinism, and who say they are not Arminians either, like Anonymous here, who agree with Pilgrim. Remember, Anonymous that the issue here is the preservation of the saints, thus, Calvinists and some others (Non- Calvinists) who agree with this doctrine do agree with Pilgrim's interpretation. Check it out.

http://bible.org/seriespage/revelation-appendix-6-book-life

http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Book%20Of%20Life

http://www.learnthebible.org/the-book-of-life.html-0

Of course, I believe that Calvinism is the most logical, and of course biblical, worldview if you hold to the "two books" position. Since mankind is dead in sin, people can not stay saved, thus God preserves our salvation.

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#45786 - Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:32 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: J_Edwards]
Ricky Offline
Plebeian

Registered: Sunday, December 20, 2009
Posts: 2
Loc: Puerto Rico
Amen to that J edwards. Agree with that 100%

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#45787 - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:43 AM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Ricky]
Kez Offline
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Registered: Wednesday, January 12, 2011
Posts: 1
Loc: 67432
A newbie here.

Election is simple to the ones who have ears to hear.

(John 10:25-27 KJV) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. {26} But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His sheep hear and follow. The reason people don't is because they are not His sheep.
_________________________
(Gal 2:21 KJV) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


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#45789 - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:06 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Kez]
chestnutmare Offline



Registered: Monday, September 8, 2003
Posts: 2487
Loc: NH
Hi Kez, Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board! I hope that you will enjoy your time spent here.

Note that there are many articles on the web site that might interest you. We look forward to getting to know you. There is an FAQ section which may help answer any questions about how this board works but feel free to PM us or ask questions that you may have.



_________________________
The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"

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#50714 - Friday, June 6, 2014 1:38 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: ]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13356
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: Cross Reference
[quote=Pilgrim]

Quote:
The fact that there is a warning that one may have his/her name removed from the Lamb's Book of Life does not mean that anyone will actually be removed. But rather it is a "prod" to motivate believers to endure to the end.


You are saying Jesus doesn't mean what He says. Sortta strips Him of credibility, wouldn't you say?

In light of all else He says and means, it is pretty amazing [and amusing] how you conclude that.

1. Having fun yet?

2. Please provide a link to where you extracted this quote allegedly from me.

3. Why is it so amazing to you that I am countless others understand that whoever has his name written in the Lamb's Book of Life it shall forever be there and cannot be removed? Those who are truly united to Christ on the ground of His substitionary atonement given by grace and appropriated through faith will not and cannot fall away. Consider the following passages: Ps 1:3; 48:14; 125:1; 138:8; Isa 46:4; Jer: 32:40; Rom 6:14; 8:29,30,35-39; 11:29; 14:4; Jh 4:14; 5:24; 6:47,51; 10:28; 14:19; 2Cor 2:14; Eph 4:30; Phil 1:6; 2Thess 3:3; 1Jh 5:11,13; Heb 7:25; 10:14 2Tim 4:18; 1Pet 1:5. Many more could be added but those should be sufficient enough to establish the eternal preservation of the saints by the God who loved them from eternity, predestinated them to salvation and elected them to be redeemed by the blood of Christ and by whose Spirit they are sanctified.

In short, Scripture interprets Scripture, aka: the Analogy of Faith determines how a passage should be interpreted. To take any text in isolation is simply asking for problems and to wrongly divide the Word of Truth.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#50716 - Friday, June 6, 2014 2:32 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Anonymous]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13356
Loc: NH, USA
1. I'm not about to spend time looking through 17 pages of this old thread to find my own quote.

2. Your anti-intellectualism is quite amusing. But my Bible says:

Romans 12:2 (ASV) "And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

That is what the Spirit does THROUGH MEANS which God has providentially provided. In this particular case, God eternally and providentially had me provide you with myriad texts that show that no true believer, one for whom Christ died will ever be lost. Thus, Rev. 21:19 is to be understood by the plethora of didactic passages which teach the eternal security of Christ's sheep; those whom the Father gave Him and in whom the Spirit dwells to provide the promised perseverance and eternal life which was given when the sinner first believed. This is true, of course, in the case of every TRUE believer but it is not applicable to everyone who simply professes to believe. No true believer will be nor can be stricken from the Book of Life. However, the majority of those who simply profess to believe never have nor will have their names written in the Book of Life.

[It would appear that you are hostile to the doctrine of the Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints, correct? In short, you believe that someone for whom Christ died can be ultimately lost and be cast into eternal hell... would that be a fair assessment of your view?]

Therefore, the warning is an inducement to persevere and to make one's "calling and election sure". This is not rocket science nor is the understanding of it to be relegated to some alleged 'voice from God' telling you how you should understand such things. It is ascertained by intellectual study with the mind being enlightened to see and then embrace the truth of it by the Spirit of God. The Spirit doesn't by-pass the natural faculties God created man with but rather uses them no less than he did to those men who wrote the Bible.

Lastly, your attitude is becoming rather brash and it might be well that you temper your hostility. On this board it is encombant that you maintain civility and respect. It's your first day and you haven't made a good impression upon me nor the others on Staff. Catch my drift, Snowbank? wink
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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