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#891 - Friday, April 4, 2003 9:49 AM Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
carlos Offline

Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA

I'm sure Fred will give a response. But one thing that I saw and disareed with is your comments regarding Calvin on Romans 11.
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Concerning Romans 11, it is clearly speaking of salvation for individuals. The example of the root and branches is used to illustrate Israel's fall and the Gentiles obtaining mercy through their fall. Even John Calvin could not escape the conclusion that this was a reference to individual salvation. He simply concluded that it was something that God said to push believers to obedience, but would never really do.

First, Pilgrim has already given u an expostion/exegesis of that chapter in another thread.
Romans 11

Secondly, Let's let Calvin speak in full because your make his commenatary too simplistic and a bit misleading.

"Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off, etc. We now understand in what sense Paul threatens them with excision, whom he has already allowed to have been grafted into the hope of life through God's election. For, first, though this cannot happen to the elect, they have yet need of such warning, in order to subdue the pride of the flesh; which being really opposed to their salvation, ought justly to be terrified with the dread of perdition. As far then as Christians are illuminated by faith, they hear, for their assurance, that the calling of God is without repentance; but as far as they carry about them the flesh, which wantonly resists the grace of God, they are taught humility by this warning, "Take heed lest thou be cut off." Secondly, we must bear in mind the solution which I have before mentioned, -- that Paul speaks [b]not here of the special election of individuals, but sets the Gentiles and Jews in opposition the one to the other; and that therefore the elect are not so much addressed in these words, as those who falsely gloried that they had obtained the place of the Jews: nay, he speaks to the Gentiles generally, and addresses the whole body in common, among whom there were many who were faithful, and those who were members of Christ in name only.[/b]

But if it be asked respecting individuals, "How any one could be cut off from the grafting, and how, after excision, he could be grafted again," -- bear in mind, that there are three modes of insition, and two modes of excision. For instance, the children of the faithful are ingrafted, to whom the promise belongs according to the covenant made with the fathers; ingrafted are also they who indeed receive the seed of the gospel, but it strikes no root, or it is choked before it brings any fruit; and thirdly, the elect are ingrafted, who are illuminated unto eternal life according to the immutable purpose of God. The first are cut off, when they refuse the promise given to their fathers, or do not receive it on account of their ingratitude; the second are cut off, when the seed is withered and destroyed; and as the danger of this impends over all, with regard to their own nature, it must be allowed that this warning which Paul gives belongs in a certain way to the faithful, lest they indulge themselves in the sloth of the flesh. But with regard to the present passage, it is enough for us to know, that the vengeance which God had executed on the Jews, is pronounced on the Gentiles, in case they become like them" (Calvin).

"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

#892 - Friday, April 11, 2003 5:25 AM Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
fredman Offline

Registered: Tuesday, July 30, 2002
Posts: 593
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns

#45784 - Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:26 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Pilgrim]
Ricky Offline

Registered: Sunday, December 20, 2009
Posts: 2
Loc: Puerto Rico
Interestingly enough, there are even people who do not agree with Calvinism, and who say they are not Arminians either, like Anonymous here, who agree with Pilgrim. Remember, Anonymous that the issue here is the preservation of the saints, thus, Calvinists and some others (Non- Calvinists) who agree with this doctrine do agree with Pilgrim's interpretation. Check it out.

Of course, I believe that Calvinism is the most logical, and of course biblical, worldview if you hold to the "two books" position. Since mankind is dead in sin, people can not stay saved, thus God preserves our salvation.

#45786 - Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:32 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: J_Edwards]
Ricky Offline

Registered: Sunday, December 20, 2009
Posts: 2
Loc: Puerto Rico
Amen to that J edwards. Agree with that 100%

#45787 - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:43 AM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Ricky]
Kez Offline

Registered: Wednesday, January 12, 2011
Posts: 1
Loc: 67432
A newbie here.

Election is simple to the ones who have ears to hear.

(John 10:25-27 KJV) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. {26} But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His sheep hear and follow. The reason people don't is because they are not His sheep.
(Gal 2:21 KJV) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

#45789 - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:06 PM Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine [Re: Kez]
Happy Birthday chestnutmare Offline

Registered: Monday, September 8, 2003
Posts: 2419
Loc: NH
Hi Kez, Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board! I hope that you will enjoy your time spent here.

Note that there are many articles on the web site that might interest you. We look forward to getting to know you. There is an FAQ section which may help answer any questions about how this board works but feel free to PM us or ask questions that you may have.

The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"

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