The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Veneration of the Saints

Then why is it that every single Catholic I've ever talked to has adamantly denied that all Christians are saints?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Why is physically dead an issue? Their bodies are gone, their souls live on.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Was it sinful for Saul to speak with the dead Samuel? (I Sam. 28.)<br><br>Also, you haven't yet answered me: Do you pray to any others of the saints in heaven besides those which have been canonized?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]However, you say "not where it is in conflict with Scripture". I am curious about this point. First, when was the Early Church in conflict with Scripture?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Several times. They would not be in need of constant rebuke and correction if they had been perfectly Scriptural. The early church was also invaded with various heresies.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]My question is, then, what authority do you (or the interpretation you stand by) have to say that a belief of the early Church disagrees with Scripture? Whose interpretation would you be using? It goes back to who has authority to interpret Scripture. I am curious on your personal beliefs on this issue.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>All saints (the Church) have the right to interpret Scripture, as we all have the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures contain in themselves the authoritative teachings of Christ and of His apostles, and are themselves sufficient for necessary understanding: "Let Scripture interpret Scripture." If you're going to argue for the special authority of the apostolic succession, then the Anglican churches and the Eastern Orthodox churches have as much authority as Rome. If you're going to argue for the special authority of the Petrine succesion, this argument is so fraught with historical fictions that it is hardly worth considering.

I will admit, it is sad. I know very many Catholics who do not know their own faith. It gives us a bad name. They have no excuse to be ignorant.<br>In Christ, Hannah

I personally do not usually ask saints to pray for me. I would not pray to a non-canonized saint just because I can't judge a person and I don't know for sure if they are in Heaven. If I do ask a saint to pray for me, it is generally Mary, and here is what I would ask,<br><br><br>"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."<br><br>In Christ, Hannah

You said: "All saints (the Church) have the right to interpret Scripture, as we all have the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures contain in themselves the authoritative teachings of Christ and of His apostles, and are themselves sufficient for necessary understanding: "Let Scripture interpret Scripture."<br><br>If, as you say, we all have authority to each interpret Scripture in our own way because we all have the Holy Spirit (I am not trying to say that we dont have the Holy Spirit), then how do you account for differences in interpretation? Does the Holy Spirit change his mind alot? Why do some interpret Communion to be the Real Presence of jesus Christ and others say it is merely symbolic? Why do some people argue that babies be baptised and others that adults? Why do some believe that it's possible to lose the Christian faith and others believe 'once saved always saved'??<br><br>-hannah

In response to what you said:<br>"It wasn't. Not until the founders of the Catholic Church created another Gospel, one that pleased their own itching ears.<br><br>The Catholic Church teaches salvation by WORKS. The Bible teaches salvation by GRACE. The Catholic Church says there are MANY mediators between God and man. The Bible says there is ONE Mediator between God and man. The Catholic Church teaches the redeemed have to atone for their sins in purgatory. The Bible says we are declared righteous by the atonement of Christ."<br><br>First of all, what do you mean by "another Gospel"? Are you implying that the Catholic Church added books or something?<br><br>Also, you misunderstand this: The Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace. Works in no measure have anything to do with earning aproval with God. If you mean the Sacraments by your word "works" then please be specific. The Catholic Church believes that the 7 sacraments (which all Christians believed in until Luther chose to get rid of 5), are the outward visible signs of inward invisible imparting of grace to correspond with our physical body and spiritual soul. If we deny either aspect, physical or spiritual, we are unbalanced in our approach to Christ and his Church in this world. <br><br>There is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus. Also purgatory in no way means we have to "pay for" our sins. Jesus already did that. Purgatory is a purification. Jesus doesn't merely declare us righteous, he makes us righteous (in Purgatory, if need be). All in Purgatory are only being purified and will be in Heaven. <br><br>In Christ, Hannah<br><br>

By the way, here is a direct quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church :<br><br>"...through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus..." 956

In reply to your question which was something like, "saints give us their help and prayers," which you quoted from the Baltimore catechism, I am looking in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I am not finding anything worded in a way that implies they give us "help". <br><br>-In Christ, Hannah

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I would not pray to a non-canonized saint just because I can't judge a person and I don't know for sure if they are in Heaven.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>So saints can be in Hell??????<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Mary was a sinner, saved by grace, yes blessed among women, but not any more deserving of God's grace than the rest of us. <br><br>Isaiah 64:6- "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."<br><br>Romans 3:21-28<br>21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, <br>22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; <br>23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, <br>24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; <br>25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; <br>26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. <br>27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. <br>28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. <br><br>Romans 4<br>1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? <br>2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. <br>3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." <br>4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. <br>5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, <br>6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: <br>7 <br> "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,<br> AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. <br>8 <br> "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." <br>9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." <br>10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; <br>11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, <br>12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. <br>13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. <br>14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; <br>15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. <br>16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, <br>17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. <br>18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." <br>19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; <br>20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, <br>21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. <br>22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. <br>23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, <br>24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who (40) raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, <br>25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. <br><br>Romans 5<br>1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, <br>2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. <br>3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; <br>4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; <br>5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. <br>6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. <br>7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. <br>8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. <br>9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. <br>10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. <br>11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. <br>12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- <br>13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. <br>14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. <br>15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. <br>16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. <br>17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. <br>18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. <br>19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. <br>20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, <br>21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.<br><br>

If saints don't help you, then why pray to Mary in the way you say you do?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]First of all, what do you mean by "another Gospel"? Are you implying that the Catholic Church added books or something?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Well, now that you mention it...It isn't just the Apocrypha, which in actuality contradicts the Bible. The Catholic Church teaches a works salvation.<br><br>Please see these links:<br><br>http://www.the-highway.com/rcsummary_Bennett.html<br>http://www.the-highway.com/sacramental_Webster.html

They pray for us.

No no no. Saints can never be in hell. I'm merely implying that I can't recognize a saint always. <br><br>You are right, Mary is in no way more deserving of grace. I didn't say she was. We all have God's grace. I was just showing you that even a well-known Catholic saying, the Hail Mary, asks Mary to pray for us (versus giving us something). <br><br>In Christ, Hannah<br>

The apocrypha was accepted by the early Church. We didn't add it, Luther threw it out. The Catholic Church does not teach a "works" salvation. They merely say that faith without works is nothing. God's grace saves us. Our faith and works then work together. The book of James says the same. <br><br>"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rehab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." James 2:24-26<br><br>Dead is a pretty strong word. <br><br>In Christ, Hannah