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Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7096
Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:43 PM
Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:43 PM
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The death is nothing without the ressurection. How is death defeated if He does not rise again? The cross being empty symbolizes both. To hold Christ to the cross is to keep Him in death.


"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." - Jonathan Edwards
Re: Souvenirs or idols? [Re: The_Saint] #7097
Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:07 PM
Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:07 PM
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MarieP Offline OP
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Amen.<br><br>Same with the Catholic view of communion.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7098
Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:37 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:37 PM
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I have a hard time with the picture thing, too, especially the caucasian rendition you mention.<br><br>I figure if it was important to know what Jesus looks like physically, a detailed description would be available in Scripture. What ISN'T in Scripture is sometimes as important as what IS. Getting focused on a made up<br>image of Christ is just not a good idea, at least for me. God said not to make a graven image, He doesn't give us a written one is Scripture, but we make one up anyway. Not good..<br><br>Hannahsmom

Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7099
Sat Nov 08, 2003 4:35 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 4:35 PM
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HWMinngrl,<br><br> I'm with all the others here who follow the commandment of the Lord! We are to have NO graven images. What part of this does the Roman church have trouble understanding? We are explicitly ordered not to make images, whether they are to "remind" us of Jesus and His works or not! Do you not think this was an important commandment to follow? Why would the Lord bother to write this specific order for us, if it was really okay in certain circumstances? <br> <br> I was born into a Roman catholic church family and brought up in the Roman traditions until I read the Bible and Martin Luther's "Here I Stand" and was convicted that the Roman church was wrong and was worshiping idols and not the true Lord God. One of the first things that struck me was the pictures and figures all over the Roman church!<br><br>In His Hands,<br><br>Ruth


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Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7100
Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:10 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,434
NH, USA
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Hannah,

Here is how the Protestant (Reformed) Churches have viewed representations of Christ, whether in the form of pictures, statues, etc.

The Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 35


Q96: What does God require in the second Commandment?
A96: That we in no way make any image of God,[1] nor worship Him in any other way than He has commanded us in His Word.[2]

Deut. 4:15-19; Isa. 40:18, 25; Rom. 1:22-24; Acts 17:29
2. I Sam. 15:23; Deut. 4:23-24; 12:30-32; Matt. 15:9; John 4:24

Q97: May we not make any image at all?
A97: God may not and cannot be imaged in any way; as for creatures, though they may indeed be imaged, yet God forbids the making or keeping of any likeness of them, either to worship them or to serve God by them.[1]

1. Exod. 23:24-25; 34:13-14; Deut. 7:5; 12:3; 16:22; II Kings 18:4; John 1:18

Q98: But may not pictures be tolerated in churches as books for the people?
A98: No, for we should not be wiser than God, who will not have His people taught by dumb idols,[1] but by the lively preaching of His Word.[2]

1. Jer. 10:8; Hab. 2:18-19
2. II Peter 1:19; II Tim. 3:16-17; Rom. 10:17




The Larger Catechism, Question 109


Q109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A109: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[1] counseling,[2] commanding,[3] using,[4] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[5] tolerating a false religion;[6] [color:red]the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[7] all worshiping of it,[8] or God in it or by it;[9] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[10] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them;[11] all superstitious devices,[12] corrupting the worship of God,[13] adding to it, or taking from it,[14] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[15] or received by tradition from others,[16] though under the title of antiquity,[17] custom,[18] devotion,[19] good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever;[20] simony;[21] sacrilege;[22] all neglect,[23] contempt,[24] hindering,[25] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[26]

1. Num. 15:39
2. Deut. 13:6-8
3. Hosea 5:11; Micah 6:16
4. I Kings 11:33; 12:33
5. Deut. 12:30-32
6. Deut. 13:6-12; Zech. 13:2-3; Rev. 2:2, 14-15, 20, Rev. 17:12, 16-17
7. Deut. 4:15-19; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:21-23, 25
8. Dan. 3:18; Gal. 4:8
9. Exod. 32:5
10. Exod. 32:8
11. I Kings 18:26, 28; Isa. 65:11
12. Acts 17:22; Col. 2:21-23
13. Mal. 1:7-8, 14
14. Deut. 4:2
15. Psa. 106:39
16. Matt. 15:9
17. I Peter 1:18
18. Jer. 44:17
19. Isa. 65:3-5; Gal. 1:13-14
20. I Sam. 13:11-12; 15:21
21. Acts 8:18
22. Rom. 2:22; Mal. 3:8
23. Exod. 4:24-26
24. Matt. 22:5; Mal. 1:7, 13
25. Matt. 23:13
26. Acts 13:44-45; I Thess. 2:15-16

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Souvenirs or idols? [Re: CovenantInBlood] #7101
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:15 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:15 PM

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I am not speaking of how he looked! How he looked never even crossed my mind! I am talking about how he WAS. His characteristics, his love, his actions. <br><br>In Christ, Hannah

Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7102
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:16 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:16 PM

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I don't mean how he looked!! I mean how he WAS, his love, his actions. I have seen all sorts of pictures depicting his looks differently, but I never think of Jesus in terms of looks. <br><br>In Christ, Hannah

Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7103
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:24 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:24 PM

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His love and characteristics cannot be embodied by a picture made by man. It would do great injustice to the Christ to think so. I would agree with others that have posted on this subject that: <br><br>1. We are not to have any graven images<br>2. The purposes you claim the pictures should serve are facilitated by Scripture, communion, baptism, and Sunday worship are for.<br><br>Chris

Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7104
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:30 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:30 PM
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MarieP Offline OP
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Amen.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Souvenirs or idols? [Re: Pilgrim] #7105
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:34 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:34 PM

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Just an interesting idea from a 13th century Christian:<br><br>"Previously, God, who has neithera body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. but now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God...and can contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled." -John Damascene

Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7106
Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:12 PM
Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:12 PM
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Posts: 13,434
NH, USA
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Hannah,

I'm not sure of what you were trying to say by that quote?? However, whatever you wanted to stress, the fact is that the writer is sorely mistaken about God not having previously having a "body or face". Who was it who walked with Adam in the Garden? Who appeared before Abraham, talked with him and walked aways with him before journeying to Sodom to destroy it? Who wrestled with Jacob and put his thigh out of joint? Was it not the pre-incarnate Christ in all these instances?

Secondly, the fact that the Son of God took upon human flesh is no license to create a picture or image, whether of material matter or in the imagination, for the Scriptures give no detailed account of His physical being. About the only description we have of Him was given poetically in the Song of Solomon and prophetically by Isaiah when he wrote:
Isaiah 53:2 (ASV) "For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Of course, all this is a moot issue if one takes seriously the prohibition written in the Second Commandment which forbids the making of any representation of the Godhead or of its individual members for any reason. grin
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ASV) "Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work."
In His Grace,


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Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7107
Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:27 PM
Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:27 PM
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Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
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Virginia
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]I am not speaking of how he looked! How he looked never even crossed my mind! I am talking about how he WAS. His characteristics, his love, his actions.



We don't need icons to convey that; His Word is far superior, and won't put false images before our eyes.



Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7108
Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:29 PM
Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:29 PM
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Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
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Virginia
In reply to:
Just an interesting idea from a 13th century Christian:

"Previously, God, who has neithera body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. but now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God...and can contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled." -John Damascene



He never saw Christ in the flesh, and thus in vanity he would portray Him.


Last edited by chestnutmare; Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:18 AM.

Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Souvenirs or idols? #7109
Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:00 PM
Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:00 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Hannah

I understand why a picture of Jesus might inspire someone, because there was a time that almost any picture of Jesus brought a smile to my face.

However, the more I study my Bible the more I see that although I was well meaning, I was misdirected.

I believe others have given you enough Scripture to show you this, so I will not go into that. Other than to say, we should take our direction from Scripture, not what we may subjectively think is right.

I believe as true Christians, we should always be reforming to what God reveals us in His Word.

Tom

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